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10degnorth
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Joined: March 07, 2018
Posts: 472
Location: Bend, Oregon
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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10ºN--Love the drawings showing the heights and "person" standing inside. The gas struts and mechanism from the video certainly look like the way to go. It will take some geometry experimentation to figure out, but looks very promising. Skip the electric jacks, although the one Amazon one:
Question: When it is extended all the way, how high is it? When folded up, how tall.
Answer: When it is fully extended it is around 2 feet tall, give or take an inch or two
When folded, it is around 6 inches tall.
In other words, about an 18" extension capability.
Gas struts are much cleaner than the electric scissors and at <$50 I'll bet they are prone to fail soon anyway.
This is a piece of pine, since painted blue, to see what a hight increase might look like. Because I want to gain 1½" I'm going to need to go up more than the board. All it did was get up to the top of the crown of the roof. I will need a flat roof for the gas/plexi slider. There was one hightop where the plane was broken about 4" up from the gutter which helped prevent the sides from being too "slabby". This seems like it may have some qualities and so my sketches reflect a break in the side plane.
Some of my requirements and noodling. Want to keep it low because the garage will not allow more than a 5" height increase. Want to have it go up and be level when deployed. Want to have a sliding glass roof on the top so it can be open when driving or not camping in order to assist with loading awkward items aboard. Want to raise the roof over the AC by at least an inch and a half to eliminate visual obstruction out the rear window while driving. Want it to look OK. Willing to settle for OK rather than wonderful as any addition is sure to compromise the design at some level.
Since I've owned a ton of splitters and feel nostalgic about them, thought I'd try a visor where the roof overhang creates it. a couple of my splitters had vents in the overhang soffit which then were rain free fresh air. It may be noisy and prevent good airflow over the windshield, so will strap a chunk 'o ply on the roof and go for a drive. But don't know how it would look or work, so the other drawings don't have it.
This is a divided roof, because it seemed the easiest way to keep the front sunroof, but will explore the headliner and other options. If it were to be a single piece which is far easier to make and keep watertight except for the seal above the windshield which will need some thinking.
The bottom drawing has some sections at the metal roof intersection. The lower half will be fiberglass which will hide some of the C pillar bracing as I want nothing going across the opening. Don't like the inside look of the Westy while driving around, so don't want struts and tenting flopping around. One thought in the transverse section is to have a full length window shade roller with the tent sides on that so they stow easily without tangling in the lifting mechanism and are out of sight when the top is down. The back tent end with fold onto of the AC roof section and not be seen. There front will have to be rolled up somehow as there are only a few inches between the back edge of the sunroof and the new opening.
You are making good headway and inspiring all of us. Keep posting.
Duncan |
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erste
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2013
Posts: 1110
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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| 10degnorth wrote: |
Vik, I agree and think there would definitely need to be a sunroof in the hightop at the very least. You are also correct that Carthago was the original producer of the popping hightop, they shared designs with SCA and Reimo, same top different brand names. I believe there is one or two more designs out there from the 80's/90's, I'll add their names if I find them. |
Here's a bit of info on those tops
• Carthago
• Reimo/SD 204 (Münnich/Primus)
• SCA/SCA500 (Teca;Luna;Trio)
• Weinsberg/Terra SD
Zwitterdach compiled by samba user Arne@kleinersyncro via t3-infos
And Karl put together a nice page with a lot of T3 highroofs. Maybe some inspiration in there for the shape and size.
http://westyventures.com/Highroofs.htm |
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10degnorth
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Joined: March 07, 2018
Posts: 472
Location: Bend, Oregon
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owokie
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: 533
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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| 10degnorth wrote: |
I believe that to comfortably sit up in the top I need roughly 36 inches from the bed platform to the top when it is up, anyone taller than me would probably prefer something closer to 38 inches so that is what I am going with. With the top down I would like to have a couple inches of head room, but not so much that the size of the top limits my driving mobility, remember, the purpose of this project is to be able to always stand up while also having a sleeping space upstairs. For me, the extra storage space is just a bonus, I can't even fill my van up as it is.
To achieve these metrics I need a 23 inch lift when the top is open and the top needs to be about 15 inches from the roof line to the top of the fiberglass roof.
I understand these measurements won't work for everyone, I am interested in adjusting things to make it fit more people, but I only have myself and my 6'4" roommate to measure off of (and he's a bit of an outlier in the height category).
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As I read this along with the requirement for a shitload of stuff carried on top, I think why not really tall high top? Even with the poptop you have in mind you already won't fit in most garages so that benefit is gone. Hightop with a big-ass sunroof would be a whole lot easier, have better load capacity, and eliminate the issue of noise and temp variation inherent to fabric. Diminished handling and mpg is really minimal on top of the already bricked-out shape. A big ass Dometic/Seitz "midi" Heki would be great on one, integrated blackout and fly-screen. |
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10degnorth
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2018
Posts: 472
Location: Bend, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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| owokie wrote: |
| 10degnorth wrote: |
I believe that to comfortably sit up in the top I need roughly 36 inches from the bed platform to the top when it is up, anyone taller than me would probably prefer something closer to 38 inches so that is what I am going with. With the top down I would like to have a couple inches of head room, but not so much that the size of the top limits my driving mobility, remember, the purpose of this project is to be able to always stand up while also having a sleeping space upstairs. For me, the extra storage space is just a bonus, I can't even fill my van up as it is.
To achieve these metrics I need a 23 inch lift when the top is open and the top needs to be about 15 inches from the roof line to the top of the fiberglass roof.
I understand these measurements won't work for everyone, I am interested in adjusting things to make it fit more people, but I only have myself and my 6'4" roommate to measure off of (and he's a bit of an outlier in the height category).
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As I read this along with the requirement for a shitload of stuff carried on top, I think why not really tall high top? Even with the poptop you have in mind you already won't fit in most garages so that benefit is gone. Hightop with a big-ass sunroof would be a whole lot easier, have better load capacity, and eliminate the issue of noise and temp variation inherent to fabric. Diminished handling and mpg is really minimal on top of the already bricked-out shape. A big ass Dometic/Seitz "midi" Heki would be great on one, integrated blackout and fly-screen. |
The sitting up inside is more of a nice to have than a need to have but it seems plausible. I don't have a need to carry a shitload of stuff, I can't even fill my van up as it is with a Westy top, a super tall hightop would be too tall to reasonably carry a board on unless I carry it mounted to the side, whereas my current design isn't even double the height of the Westy top from roofline to top so I could still comfortably throw a board on top. Fitting in a garage was never a goal of mine, my van already doesn't fit in most garages with the Westy top and lift. The nail in the coffin for a tall hightop for me is that I don't think that they look all that great, their height starts to mess with the lines of the van.
If I wanted a full hightop I could just put my Reimo top on and save the trouble, but I like to make my own life hard  .
Also, I like sewing so I am kinda looking forward to making the tent.
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg Vanagon (Current Project): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773912&highlight=
1988 Microsquirted, Wolfsburg Vanagon (Sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708000&highlight=
Microsquirt Conversion Guide (Work now Discontinued): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1laXykNPbRYS8MT...2imqd2pnx7 |
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owokie
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Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: 533
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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| 10degnorth wrote: |
The sitting up inside is more of a nice to have than a need to have but it seems plausible. I don't have a need to carry a shitload of stuff, I can't even fill my van up as it is with a Westy top, a super tall hightop would be too tall to reasonably carry a board on unless I carry it mounted to the side, whereas my current design isn't even double the height of the Westy top from roofline to top so I could still comfortably throw a board on top. Fitting in a garage was never a goal of mine, my van already doesn't fit in most garages with the Westy top and lift. The nail in the coffin for a tall hightop for me is that I don't think that they look all that great, their height starts to mess with the lines of the van.
If I wanted a full hightop I could just put my Reimo top on and save the trouble, but I like to make my own life hard .
Also, I like sewing so I am kinda looking forward to making the tent. |
Gotcha. Looked back at your photo that triggered the "shitload of stuff" coment and realize it's just the largest paddleboard I've seen. Carry on.
Have a buddy that liked to sew. Built bikepacking bags etc. He built out and sewed up a tent for an Astro, Westy tent-style that I dubbed the "Assfalia". I do believe that project cured him of his love to sew. |
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10degnorth
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2018
Posts: 472
Location: Bend, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:16 am Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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| owokie wrote: |
| 10degnorth wrote: |
The sitting up inside is more of a nice to have than a need to have but it seems plausible. I don't have a need to carry a shitload of stuff, I can't even fill my van up as it is with a Westy top, a super tall hightop would be too tall to reasonably carry a board on unless I carry it mounted to the side, whereas my current design isn't even double the height of the Westy top from roofline to top so I could still comfortably throw a board on top. Fitting in a garage was never a goal of mine, my van already doesn't fit in most garages with the Westy top and lift. The nail in the coffin for a tall hightop for me is that I don't think that they look all that great, their height starts to mess with the lines of the van.
If I wanted a full hightop I could just put my Reimo top on and save the trouble, but I like to make my own life hard .
Also, I like sewing so I am kinda looking forward to making the tent. |
Gotcha. Looked back at your photo that triggered the "shitload of stuff" coment and realize it's just the largest paddleboard I've seen. Carry on.
Have a buddy that liked to sew. Built bikepacking bags etc. He built out and sewed up a tent for an Astro, Westy tent-style that I dubbed the "Assfalia". I do believe that project cured him of his love to sew. |
Yeah that's a 14 footer for racing, its something like 25" wide, skinny but super long.
I like that name haha, good play on words. I fully acknowledge that the tent sewing will be a challenge, but a welcome one.
I appreciate your input.
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg Vanagon (Current Project): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773912&highlight=
1988 Microsquirted, Wolfsburg Vanagon (Sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708000&highlight=
Microsquirt Conversion Guide (Work now Discontinued): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1laXykNPbRYS8MT...2imqd2pnx7 |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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I fully support your idea of separating out what is "need" vs. what is "want". Sitting headroom aloft is a great idea and if the top goes up, why not a little higher? I'm convinced that with 1/8" Dyneema/Amsteel cord it is possible to have a very secure top in a raised position at the height you want. No sway, twist or racking. And the stuff is floppy so it can be tucked away and is pretty inexpensive. I use it to hold up the mast on my sailboat, lifelines and other applications.
Sewing the tent. No hill for a climber--you are definitely a climber! Do the first one without windows or anything from some cheap non waterproof, non stretching fabric to see what the issues are, then go for it.
Duncan |
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DuncanS
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Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:12 am Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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Haven't heard anything in a while. Any new thoughts?
Here's my latest. Will at least get me by until more permanent solutions are found. $64 delivered from Finland in under a week. Well made and exactly the right width and length. Zippered screens and door flaps. I knew it was going to be too tall so this was just a mock-up test. It doesn't need a ridgepole.
Once it has been re sewn to be lower and there are exact length strings with hooks, figure the set up will be less than 5 mins.
Let us hear, Duncan |
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10degnorth
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Joined: March 07, 2018
Posts: 472
Location: Bend, Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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Been thinking and working on this project again a little bit.
Stumbled across the Weissman top which has become a big inspiration. I love that its not too tall that it throws off the look of the Vanagon while still letting an average height person stand up inside.
I have a CAD model of my version of the Weissman top that I could translate into buck cross sections. But I'm currently lacking access to a large format CNC machine.
I've been thinking of building the first one with simpler geometry. Then I could use some plasma cut metal brackets and 2x3's to build a hollow buck that is undersized by 1" and then use that to form a 1" purple foam shape onto, followed by fiberglass. This would provide a form for the glass, while also integrating insulation into the top similar to the AW tops if I glass the inside as well.
Just thought I'd share.
Too many projects, not enough time or money.
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg Vanagon (Current Project): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773912&highlight=
1988 Microsquirted, Wolfsburg Vanagon (Sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708000&highlight=
Microsquirt Conversion Guide (Work now Discontinued): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1laXykNPbRYS8MT...2imqd2pnx7 |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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10degnorth
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Joined: March 07, 2018
Posts: 472
Location: Bend, Oregon
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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Correct. They have been slow to finish but I am interested in seeing the final product and numbers once the dust settles. They named a vendor they were working with for the canvas but that was months ago.
Still interested in seeing what you come up with, some people come up with creative designs. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: High-Poptop Long Term Project. |
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| 10degnorth wrote: |
Stumbled across the Weissman top which has become a big inspiration.
1" purple foam shape followed by fiberglass. This would provide for integrating insulation into the top. |
This is a great top and a great idea. Two things. First, polyester resin eats styrofoam insulation and so has to have some kind of a barrier which will allow the resin to bond. I suggest the first coat be epoxy with 10oz cloth and then followed by polyester with a layer of mat and finally another cloth layer on top of that. You don't need as elaborate an egg crate as you show. Just four ish simple transverse pieces of ply with some stringers let into them. Drape some builders poly over the car and do it right on top of the car for a perfect match. Another layer of glass on the inside. Polyester doesn't stick to epoxy quite as well as to itself, but the bond is not going round Cape Horn and will be fine. Use the more expensive urethane foam which is stronger and a much better insulator than styrofoam and is compatible with polyester resin.
Stick the foam panels together with hot glue and then use can spray foam at the joints. When cured, sand the spray foam with a disc sander to shape--rounded or square edged.
Second--This will not cost an arm and a leg. <$500 for materials. Wires can be put into slots in the foam ahead of time for light, speakers, antennas, PA bullhorns--whatever you want. Reworking the shape once glassed is easily accomplished. None of this requires a mold, but the outside and inside won't look like a molded job. However, with patience, filler and sanding, there is no reason why not.
This is something I've thought about too, but as you say, too many other projects and not enough staff who comes with their own money.
A whole other options is a Skin-on-Frame build which would be extremely light weight and translucent so light could enter. https://www.nomadboatbuilding.com/skin-on-frame-construction/ Clear plexiglass and skylight too if you want. The beauty of this is there is no body putty and tedious fairing. Lighter and quicker too. A top built like this could be done in a single week. Hundreds of canoes and dinghies including mine built by first timers took about that long. It doesn't have to be a boat at all. There is no reason why a Weissman shape couldn't be done.
This 12' x 4' boat weighs 22 pounds. It would be under 20 without the paint. Full standing headroom underneath. Yes, that is a plexiglass transom
Duncan
P. S. The gas cap in the top photo is exactly where mine will go when the aux tank goes in. |
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10degnorth
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