Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  

Would you be interested in this product if it were available?
Yes
33%
 33%  [ 13 ]
No
53%
 53%  [ 21 ]
Maybe
12%
 12%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 39

Author Message
trailrunnerbus
Samba Member


Joined: September 30, 2019
Posts: 26
Location: flyover state
trailrunnerbus is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

maybe. Laughing

Last edited by trailrunnerbus on Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22568
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

..... and no one ever ends a thread on Samba with a FB link, hmmmmmmmm *




* exception of the abortions thread
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

andrig's wrote:
Your post is very long, so I don't want to comment on every little detail, but let me comment on a few of the points.

Flat aluminum panels look poor to me, whether they are in the center or in the place of the original cluster. The entire dash has a very specific curve to it, which actually took me quite some time to replicate exactly.

My personal design aesthetic is to create something that would look as much like it came from the factory as possible, but be brand new, with modern instruments. If someone want to explore used parts from Brazil, or crafting their own panels, this product is not for them. It won't be inexpensive.

As for VDO gauges, my personal experience has been good with oil pressure and temperature gauges, but I have had interesting problems with their GPS speedometer, and their tachometers are very sensitive to the gauge of the wire, and almost always read incorrectly in a rear engine car due to the length of the wire required. The cylinder head temperature gauge, if you can even find one, is really terrible, most of the time reading some 50 to 100 degrees off the actual head temp.

I also have just found that the Speedhut gauges are very accurate, and they come with wiring and senders as part of the package. You don't have to purchase them separately.

In regards to the safety and appropriateness of a 120 mph speedo, I would just say, this potential product is not really for someone that has a bone stock bus. It's for someone that is customizing already. Why do anything other than the stock gauges and cluster if your bus is completely stock?

So, my audience for this product is people who have spent some money on a nice engine upgrade, and suspension upgrade making regular highway speeds and beyond safe.

I own a 1986 Doka Syncro, and in stock trim that vehicle shouldn't really be driven much past 65. But I have a 2.7 liter engine that makes double stock, and I have suspension upgrades that make it safe. It still gets moved around a little on the highway in strong cross winds, but the suspension is so much better than it just takes a small amount of correction in the steering, and it's perfectly fine.

So, again, the customers I would be targeting would have invested quite a bit in their bay window, making it considerable safer.


If you thought my post was very long, then it's apparent that you have probably not ready many of my posts!

There might be a small specialised market for the product you are proposing, but the smaller the market, the higher the unit cost and the more you will rely upon people's willingness to pay a lot of money for exclusivity, of which I suspect, only a very small proportion will be 1968~79 VW Type 2 owners.

What do you estimate the unit pricing of your product to be, assuming a production run of say 10, 20, 50, 100 or possibly more? Unless you can give a reasonable estimate, you probably won't make much headway with your survey!

I certainly agree with the philosophy of making one's VW Type 2 safer, especially with regard to its road manners, but there is a limit to how much I and others would be willing to spend.

I am not particularly enamoured with the aluminium panel either, but at the time it was quick, easy and cheap to implement on a slightly tatty, spare second-hand dashboard I have. This is why I shall be substituting some high-end plywood, that will be sculpted to the shape of the dashboard and painted satin black. It will look very tidy, but not of factory-stock appearance. I suspect that people who spend a lot of money customising their vehicles, are not particularly concerned about maintaining a factory-stock appearance.

As I previously mentioned, the Mexican & Brazilian built, "bay-window" VW Type 2 T2c, has the useful upgrade of a VW Type 1 Beetle speedometer with integral fuel gauge and warning lights, which would considerably reduce the cost of customisation, whilst still maintaining a factor-stock appearance.

1989 VW Bus Caravelle - Mexico

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1989_caravelle_mexico.php

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1998 Kombi Carat - Brazil

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1998_kombi_carat_brazil.php

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1998 Kombi Standard - Brazil

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1998_kombi_standard_brazil.php

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andrig's
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
andrig's is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

trailrunnerbus wrote:
andrig's wrote:
edhnb wrote:
I like it. and you have some other cool products on your channel too.

I would also post this to the various Bay Window forums on facebook to get a feel for demand.


I wasn't aware of the Bay Window forums on Facebook. I'll check it out.

Thanks.


There's more people there than there are here. All of the jaded 'baywindow owners are cheap a-holes' type folks here ran them all off of thesamba over the years and made this place mostly an echo chamber for a handful of soapboxers.

they are the ones more eager to do custom stuff as well, looking for the next product to try out or customize with.


I found several Facebook groups, and I posted on them, and didn't get a single response.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andrig's
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
andrig's is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

One area I might target with this product is the Subaru conversion market. I am actually fairly close to a shop that does Subaru conversions for Bay Window buses.

It might be more interesting for them to add this product to their conversion offering, than as a general product for everyone.

I have the first set of gauges with my artwork, and did a test fit, and found an issue with my panel. I have the changes necessary all done in CAD, but I have some higher priorities for my 3D printer right now.

Once I clear off the work that is higher priority, I'll print a new panel, get the gauges installed, and test fit to a Bay Window bus I have access too.

After getting everything to fit, I will probably take the kit up to the shop that does the conversion and see what they think.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

andrig's wrote:
One area I might target with this product is the Subaru conversion market. I am actually fairly close to a shop that does Subaru conversions for Bay Window buses.

It might be more interesting for them to add this product to their conversion offering, than as a general product for everyone.

I have the first set of gauges with my artwork, and did a test fit, and found an issue with my panel. I have the changes necessary all done in CAD, but I have some higher priorities for my 3D printer right now.

Once I clear off the work that is higher priority, I'll print a new panel, get the gauges installed, and test fit to a Bay Window bus I have access too.

After getting everything to fit, I will probably take the kit up to the shop that does the conversion and see what they think.


Will this custom instrument binnacle be equally suitable for both left-hand-drive and right-hand-drive applications; given that in a significant proportion of the World’s countries (i.e. most of the British Commonwealth, British Overseas Territories, Ireland, Japan, Thailand and probably a few others) drive on the left.

Looking at your gauge pictures in The Samba Gallery, I noticed that for the oil-temperature and oil-pressure gauges, the Deg.F & psi are in VERY small print that is difficult to see and there are no words to distinguish between the temperature and pressure gauges.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If one is including customised gauges in the substitute custom instrument binnacle, it might be worth incorporating coloured segments to indicate the optimum, acceptable and non-acceptable operating conditions. For example:

Oil temperature:

violet – temperatures below 50ºC (too cold for more than low-power, low-load operation)

dark-blue – temperatures in the range 50ºC~70ºC (much colder than optimal)

light-blue - temperatures in the range 80ºC~90ºC (cooler than optimal temperature)

dark green – temperatures in the range 80ºC~90ºC (optimal temperature range)

light green – temperatures in the range 90ºC~100ºC (warmer than optimal)

orange – temperatures in the range 100ºC~110ºC (much warmer than optimal)

red – temperatures in the range 110ºC~120ºC (too hot for sustained operation)

One could use a similar scheme for oil pressure, water temperature, voltage and other essential & desirable monitoring functions.

Approaching vehicle converters, customising workshops and VW Type 2 accessory retailers would certainly be worth trying.

Back in the late-1990s, before the dawn of the Internet and access to e-mail facilities, I tried marketing the concept of my cross-over-arm pantograph rear window wiper, as fitted to my own 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 motor-caravan, for which I used second-hand factory-fitted parts from the Vauxhall Astra Mk.1 station wagon.

With a little further development it could be optimised for the VW Type 2 rear window; a point I made in a letter to the chief designer at Volkswagen do Brazil (who made the "bay-window" VW Type 2 from at least 1997 until 2012).

A few British companies were interested in this, but only if I could provide complete kits. My own system was hand-crafted taking many hours to complete and there was an insufficient regular supply of second-hand parts available even then. It would only have been economically viable if I could mass-produce optimised parts and sell sufficient quantity to justify the start-up costs. Consequently, I am one of only few people in the World, whose 1968~79 VW Type 2 is equipped with such a system!

Forum Index > Bay Window Bus > 1968~79 VW Type 2 window wiper & washer upgrades

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186468

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net


Last edited by NASkeet on Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:48 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22568
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

Nigel

It’s always a pleasure reading your grammatically correct, punctuated, and informative posts, said posts succulently adorned with Oxford commas and semicolons.
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
andrig's wrote:
So, my audience for this product is people who have spent some money on a nice engine upgrade, and suspension upgrade making regular highway speeds and beyond safe.

So, again, the customers I would be targeting would have invested quite a bit in their bay window, making it considerable safer.


There might be a small specialised market for the product you are proposing, but the smaller the market, the higher the unit cost and the more you will rely upon people's willingness to pay a lot of money for exclusivity, of which I suspect, only a very small proportion will be 1968~79 VW Type 2 owners.

What do you estimate the unit pricing of your product to be, assuming a production run of say 10, 20, 50, 100 or possibly more? Unless you can give a reasonable estimate, you probably won't make much headway with your survey!


Having looked at your product pricing on andrigsaircooledtechnology.com for custom VW Type 1 engine cam followers (US$429) and the "Next Level Dash" (US$699 NOT including gauges or radio!) for 1958~67 VW Type 1 Beetles, I cannot help thinking that you are likely to have a VERY small uptake on these products! Shocked Even with all of the gauges and the radio included in the price, I doubt whether I would be willing to pay as much as US$699 for the "Next Level Dash".
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:46 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Nigel

It’s always a pleasure reading your grammatically correct, punctuated, and informative posts, said posts succulently adorned with Oxford commas and semicolons.


It's always nice to have one's literary contributions appreciated, but my commas and semicolons, have their origins in various other British universities, of which none were Oxford!
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

camit34 wrote:
Sent you a PM

I am interested in going with this Speedhut gauge and your design looks great.

https://www.speedhut.com/ecommerce/product/2944/4-1-2


The 108 mm diameter hole is rather large compared to the height of the dashboard aperture, which I think is 112 mm if my memory serves me correctly.
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andrig's
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
andrig's is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
andrig's wrote:
One area I might target with this product is the Subaru conversion market. I am actually fairly close to a shop that does Subaru conversions for Bay Window buses.

It might be more interesting for them to add this product to their conversion offering, than as a general product for everyone.

I have the first set of gauges with my artwork, and did a test fit, and found an issue with my panel. I have the changes necessary all done in CAD, but I have some higher priorities for my 3D printer right now.

Once I clear off the work that is higher priority, I'll print a new panel, get the gauges installed, and test fit to a Bay Window bus I have access too.

After getting everything to fit, I will probably take the kit up to the shop that does the conversion and see what they think.


Will this custom instrument binnacle be equally suitable for both left-hand-drive and right-hand-drive applications; given that in a significant proportion of the World’s countries (i.e. most of the British Commonwealth, British Overseas Territories, Ireland, Japan, Thailand and probably a few others) drive on the left.

Looking at your gauge pictures in The Samba Gallery, I noticed that for the oil-temperature and oil-pressure gauges, the Deg.F & psi are in VERY small print that is difficult to see and there are no words to distinguish between the temperature and pressure gauges.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If one is including customised gauges in the substitute custom instrument binnacle, it might be worth incorporating coloured segments to indicate the optimum, acceptable and non-acceptable operating conditions. For example:

Oil temperature:

violet – temperatures below 50ºC (too cold for more than low-power, low-load operation)

dark-blue – temperatures in the range 50ºC~70ºC (much colder than optimal)

light-blue - temperatures in the range 80ºC~90ºC (cooler than optimal temperature)

dark green – temperatures in the range 80ºC~90ºC (optimal temperature range)

light green – temperatures in the range 90ºC~100ºC (warmer than optimal)

orange – temperatures in the range 100ºC~110ºC (much warmer than optimal)

red – temperatures in the range 110ºC~120ºC (too hot for sustained operation)

One could use a similar scheme for oil pressure, water temperature, voltage and other essential & desirable monitoring functions.

Approaching vehicle converters, customising workshops and VW Type 2 accessory retailers would certainly be worth trying.

Back in the late-1990s, before the dawn of the Internet and access to e-mail facilities, I tried marketing the concept of my cross-over-arm pantograph rear window wiper, as fitted to my own 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 motor-caravan, for which I used second-hand factory-fitted parts from the Vauxhall Astra Mk.1 station wagon.

With a little further development it could be optimised for the VW Type 2 rear window; a point I made in a letter to the chief designer at Volkswagen do Brazil (who made the "bay-window" VW Type 2 from at least 1997 until 2012).

A few British companies were interested in this, but only if I could provide complete kits. My own system was hand-crafted taking many hours to complete and there was an insufficient regular supply of second-hand parts available even then. It would only have been economically viable if I could mass-produce optimised parts and sell sufficient quantity to justify the start-up costs. Consequently, I am one of only few people in the World, whose 1968~79 VW Type 2 is equipped with such a system!

Forum Index > Bay Window Bus > 1968~79 VW Type 2 window wiper & washer upgrades

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186468

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yes, this will work for left and right hand drive vehicles.

In terms of the gauges, there is a warning light that is not shown in the art work for each gauge. So, if oil pressure drops, or oil temperature is too high, a warning light will light. Same with fuel level, as it drops. The idea was to make the gauges look as much like the OEM gauges as possible.

Yes, the degree farenheit marking and the PSI marking are quite small, but once you get used to which is which I don't believe drivers will struggle with it. The two scales are so different, that that alone tells you which is which. Oil pressure is never going to to to 300 PSI, and likewise, oil temperature will almost always be above 100 degrees.

I believe Speedhut would allow me to do more with colors between the tick marks, as I did on the fuel gauge. It's an interesting option that I can explore.

Yes, when trying to bring a product to market, no one will be interested in selling it for you, if it's not a complete, optimized, testing offering that is for sure.

I'm still a ways away from that, and it's one of the reason I have been asking for whether people are interested in such an offering. To finish the product development takes both additional time and money, so I'm trying to gauge whether this will be worth it or not.

I do have a prototype set of gauges now, with my art work, and I test fit them in the panel. I have to make a very small adjustment to the panel to have them fit perfectly, but it's very close. I have also secured access to a Bay Window bus for testing purposes.

I will at least get this to the point of making sure it fits correctly in the vehicle, and that the gauges fit perfectly. At that point, I'll have some that is worthy of display, and be able to show people something more representative of what the actual product will look like.

Thanks for the feedback.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andrig's
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
andrig's is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
NASkeet wrote:
andrig's wrote:
So, my audience for this product is people who have spent some money on a nice engine upgrade, and suspension upgrade making regular highway speeds and beyond safe.

So, again, the customers I would be targeting would have invested quite a bit in their bay window, making it considerable safer.


There might be a small specialised market for the product you are proposing, but the smaller the market, the higher the unit cost and the more you will rely upon people's willingness to pay a lot of money for exclusivity, of which I suspect, only a very small proportion will be 1968~79 VW Type 2 owners.

What do you estimate the unit pricing of your product to be, assuming a production run of say 10, 20, 50, 100 or possibly more? Unless you can give a reasonable estimate, you probably won't make much headway with your survey!


Having looked at your product pricing on andrigsaircooledtechnology.com for custom VW Type 1 engine cam followers (US$429) and the "Next Level Dash" (US$699 NOT including gauges or radio!) for 1958~67 VW Type 1 Beetles, I cannot help thinking that you are likely to have a VERY small uptake on these products! Shocked Even with all of the gauges and the radio included in the price, I doubt whether I would be willing to pay as much as US$699 for the "Next Level Dash".


The price of the lifters is a very competitive price for tool steel lifters. Many that have been on the market were much higher, and they are in line with the ones still on the market. You cannot compare prices of tool steel lifters to standard cast iron ones. The price of M2 tool steel is 8 times higher than cast iron, just for the raw material.

On the next level dash product, yes, the price is high, but the trim that goes down the center of the dash is billet 304 stainless steel, as is the radio face plate. That isn't cheap either, just from a material perspective. They are CNC machines from solid billet, not cast. So, it's definitely a high end product for someone looking to do something really special. If you have ever seen the replacement trim that is sold for around $50, it is half the size of the original, and it's paper thin. The plastic clips they use are not the greatest either, and it's advertised as "German Quality". There isn't much quality there at all.

So, yes, those two products are expensive, but they are very high quality from very high quality materials, and expensive materials.

I have more products in development that will be a lot less expensive, but I like really nice stuff, and I don't want to sell cheap, low quality products.

Next month I'll have the first new cooling fan ever designed for the Type 1 aircooled engine, and it's patent pending.

I also have some other engine components in testing right now, and they will be reasonable in terms of price, compared to their competition, but be much better designed.

Having been involved with aircooled VW's since 1982, I see a lot of very low quality parts in the aftermarket. I want to create really high quality parts, that I know work well and better then their competition, if there is any competitive product in the space.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
camit34
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2006
Posts: 1567
Location: Commerce City CO
camit34 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

This is a super cool idea and I wish you luck with it.

I'm "just across" the 25 from you if you ever need a Bus to check things with or bounce ideas off of.
_________________
In search of a Vanagon
1971 Westy (SOLD)
1971 Deluxe (SOLD)
1967 Freedom Camper (SOLD)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andrig's
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
andrig's is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

camit34 wrote:
This is a super cool idea and I wish you luck with it.

I'm "just across" the 25 from you if you ever need a Bus to check things with or bounce ideas off of.


Yes, I have some other ideas for Bus owners, so your offer could definitely come in handy.

Thanks for that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
camit34 wrote:
Sent you a PM

I am interested in going with this Speedhut gauge and your design looks great.

https://www.speedhut.com/ecommerce/product/2944/4-1-2


The 108 mm diameter hole is rather large compared to the height of the dashboard aperture, which I think is 112 mm if my memory serves me correctly.


Owing to my uncertainty regarding the height of the dashboard aperture, I checked the vertical dimension of my original factory-fitted instrument panel. Rather than being 112 mm as I had supposed, I found that my original factory-fitted, right-hand-drive instrument panel is 124½ mm at the control-levers end and 119 mm at the vacant time-clock end.
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

alman72 wrote:
i would be interested in a cluster that has space on the far right for 3 or 4 of the small gauges like Skills used in his mod. I would like to keep my stock fuel gauge, and speedo, but the far right blank, or clock hole, is great space for a temp gauge or oil pressure, or volts, but you only get to choose one.


Here is something that might interest you, but it’s probably so rare that they are virtually unobtainable.

1968~79 VW Type 2, ONG, combined tachometer & oil-temperature indicator

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=336268

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


jtauxe wrote:
I would not be interested in the setup, andrig, but not because it is not cool or interesting. It's that I already have a working setup and do not have a compelling need to improve it.

That said, I love the innovations that are possible with 3D printing, so I have a couple of suggestions regarding improvements on the original design.

1. I have never understood why VW recessed the gauges so deeply into the panel. You could play with the idea of recessing them just cm or so... maybe?

2. The way the panel attaches to the dash has been a source of frustration for every bus owner. Those damned clips sitting right above the unshielded hot wires in the light switches... ugh! How about integrating a design where... just spitballin' here... the gauge cluster would be attached at the top with a cam screw, and would fit into the bottom with fingers. So that to install it you would drop the lower edge in first to engage the fingers, and then secure the top edge with cams that could be turned with a phillips screwdriver or maybe even with the fingers. Just some ideas...

Keep up the innovations!


I suspect the reason for deeply recessing the gauges might be to limit the degree of directional-light-reflection (typically directional sunlight) off the smooth “polished” surfaces of the conventional-glass lenses. Such reflection would render the gauge difficult to read in strong sunlight as well as posing a potential glare hazard. Using “non-reflective” lenses would largely eliminate this problem.

Based upon my own experiences of driving, I am extremely wary of having any reflective surfaces within either the main or peripheral zones of vision of the driver. This is the main reason that I avoid having chromium-plated or polished stainless-steel gauge bezels, steering-wheel spokes, windscreen wipers or other components. It’s also the reason that anti-dazzle rear-view mirrors were introduced. Even satin-black painted surfaces can reflect some sunlight, which might be the reason why British & European specification 1968~79 VW Type 2s, had a textured, matt-black painted surface for the 1974 model-year onward.

I agree that one needs a better way to secure the instrument panel within the dashboard aperture. I suspect that the four shaped clips & long countersunk, self-tapping screws were simply the cheapest option that would do the job, without any regard to ease of maintenance.

andrig's wrote:
The two side gauges would have programmable warning lights for each of the gauges, so you don't lose the warning lights.


What do you mean by programmable warning lights? Is there some way of activating particular warning lights, based upon the actual gauge readings, if:

(a) oil-pressure deviates above and/or below certain upper & lower limits?
(b) oil-temperature deviates above and/or below certain upper & lower limits?
(c) battery and/or regulated alternator voltages deviate above and/or below certain upper & lower limits?
(d) fuel-level falls below a certain minimum?


andrig's wrote:
I also have just found that the Speedhut gauges are very accurate, and they come with wiring and senders as part of the package. You don't have to purchase them separately.


andrig's wrote:
The gauges also come with the wiring harness, which may only have to be extended for a bus.


andrig's wrote:
In terms of the oil pressure and oil temperature senders, I will probably make the appropriate adapter for them to fit the Type 1 engine through '71, and the Type IV from '72 on. Of course, if someone did an engine swap to a water cooled engine, I might have to think about that too.


Unless Speedhut are commonly catering for classic rear-engined vehicles (e.g. most air-cooled VWs, Tatra, Skoda, some Fiat, some Renault and the Chevrolet Corvair & Greenbriar), their wiring kits are likely to be very much too short. This means that purchasers of your product will have to independently source additional cable of appropriate wiring colours, together with a means of reliably connecting these extensions to the wires supplied by Speedhut.

If the wiring-colours of the Speedhut wiring kits, are compatible with and distinguishable from other system functions of the air-cooled VWs, then that is all well and good. Ideally each individual gauge and warning-light function, should have unique wiring colours which cannot be confused with anything else. This is certainly the case with my 1973 VW “1600” Type 2; having devised my own colour code, based upon green/tracer for gauges and blue/tracer for most warning lights. I shall probably use light-green/tracer for the remote-shunt ammeter.

Having just a single sender option as part of the package, isn’t necessarily an advantage. Another concern, is whether compatible, replacement senders, are likely to be available in the long-term future, if and when the sender supplied with the kit ultimately fails. As with all after-market kits, especially from non-OEM suppliers, one of the major concerns is long-term spares availability!

It’s preferable to avoid needing to use installation adapters if possible. It would generally be better to obtain a separate sender (especially one that needs to be connected to an existing hole or fitting of a specific thread size) which is most appropriate to one’s vehicle. This is the advantage of VDO’s plethora of different sender options and information is readily available about which senders are compatible with which gauges.

1992 VDO Products Catalogue, Stockist List and Price List

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1992_vdo_catalog.php

Given that VDO have been the long-established OEM supplier of instrumentation to car manufacturers, such as Volkswagen-Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Volvo, they must generally be of reasonable quality and I have a strong suspicion that there is a VDO factory in North America, as well as Germany, Australia, India and possibly other countries.

One might wish to note, that it is the VDO Cockpit gauges for 50~150 ºC oil-temperature, 0~5 Bar oil-pressure and 8~16 volts, fitted to the USA-manufactured VW Golfs (i.e. Rabbit in USA parlance!?!), which are commonly salvaged at car wreckers, for sale at very modest prices, for use in air-cooled VWs, for which they are eminently suitable.

In the case of fitting an oil-pressure gauge sender to a VW Type 4 style air-cooled engine, use of an adapter is essential, as I discussed in the following magazine technical article, based upon my own investigations of what was practical, impractical and impossible to implement, plus my own ideas of what readily-available, reasonably-cheap, new and second-hand parts could be used for the purpose.

Nigel A. Skeet, “How to: Fitting an Oil-Pressure Gauge-Sender, Installation Adapter, to the Type 4 Engine”, Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, Issue 17, Winter 2004, Pages 44~45.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1991575

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1991576

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


TheSamba.com :: Gallery - Cross-section of VW Type 4 engine's, oil-pressure, gauge-sender, installation adapter

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


TheSamba.com :: Gallery - Cross-section of VW Type 4 engine's, oil-pressure, gauge-sender, installation adapter, with two 1-way banjos

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


TheSamba.com :: Gallery - Type 4 engine, oil-pressure gauge-sender, installation adapter

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


TheSamba.com :: Gallery - Type 4 engine, oil-pressure gauge-sender, installation adapter

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In the case of a 0~5 Bar oil-pressure gauge (more appropriate than 0~100 psi = 6•8 Bar, given the typical oil pressures in VW air-cooled engines), there are four two-terminal, 5 Bar senders, having the M10 x 1•0 mm thread size (the appropriate thread size for VW & Audi), with the option of different break-on-rise switching-pressures, to activate the low-oil-pressure warning light.

There are also two-terminal oil-temperature senders & water-temperature senders, of M14 x 1•5 mm thread size, which incorporate different break-on-fall switching-temperatures, to activate a supplementary high-oil-temperature or high-water-temperature warning light.


andrig's wrote:
I'm not doing this on the side, this is my business. Having said that, product development is not cheap either. So, I'm trying to gauge interest. If you’re interested, assuming all the testing is done, and I know everything works, which I have no doubts about, and there are enough people interested, than I will spend the time and money to fully develop the product, which of course will include testing.


Noting that this project is part of your business rather than merely a self-financing hobby, it might be more prudent to survey what configuration of substitute instrument panel and gauge choice, would be most favoured by your potential client base, on which there is a general consensus, rather than trying to promote your own ideal of what you think would or should be aesthetically pleasing to them; although it was a reasonable starting point. Just because VW chose to design the instrument panel in a certain way, doesn’t mean that VW owners would preferentially choose that, if they had the option of something else.


andrig's wrote:
The entire dash has a very specific curve to it, which actually took me quite some time to replicate exactly.


I suspect that the curvature of the dashboard follows the arc of a circle or is a very close approximation to this. If this is the case, one can easily determine the diameter & radius of curvature and centre-angle of the associated segment, after taking some depth measurements of the dashboard’s inner concave surface using a straight edge of appropriate length and depth gauge (as used for determining an engine’s squish clearance), plus application of basic trigonometry and a circle theorem pertaining to intersecting chords, as studied at junior-high-school.

This was a technique that I used to determine the concave-curvatures of my 1973 VW “1600” Type 2’s rear spare-wheel well and the factory-fitted, walnut-veneered, plywood instrument panel, in the 1976~80 Triumph Dolomite 1500/1850 HL dashboard, which I substituted into my closely-related 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300.

Circles or circular arcs can be defined mathematically using the following equation, which can be easily derived using Pythagoras’s Theorem for right-angled triangles:

(x – a)² + (y – b)² = r²

Where “x” and “y” are the general Cartesian coordinates of points on the circular arc, “a” and “b” are the specific Cartesian coordinates of the circle’s centre, and “r” is the radius of the circle. There is probably also a parametric form of this equation, but I have yet to find it. I suspect that a form of these could probably be programmed into a 3D printer or CNC milling machine.

According to the theorem, if two chords AB and CD intersect at a point E inside or outside the circle, then the product of lengths AE x EB = CE x ED.

In the case of my 1973 VW “1600” Type 2’s rear spare-wheel well, I measured lengthwise horizontally across the length of the spare-wheel well, giving a chord-length AB = 630 mm, via mid-point E, such that AE = EB = ½ x 630 mm = 315 mm.

Measuring vertically downward from mid-point E, to the bottom of the wheel well at point C, gave the length CE = 194 mm, forming part of chord CD = CE + ED, which is a diameter of the circle; recalling that a radius or diameter bisects a chord at a right angle.

Manipulation of the relationship gives ED = AE x EB / CE. Further manipulation gives the wheel-well diameter CD = CE + ED = CE + AE x EB / CE.

Recall that AE = EB = 315 mm and CE = 194 mm

Hence, wheel-well diameter CD = 194 + 315 x 315 / 194 = 705 mm

The dimensions AE and CE were probably measured to better than ± 1 mm, so the wheel-well’s cross-sectional diameter probably lies in the range 700~711 mm or 705½ ± 5¼ mm

CDMAX = (194 + 1) + (315 + ½) x (315 + ½) / (194 – 1) = 710¾ mm

CDMIN = (194 - 1) + (315 - ½) x (315 - ½) / (194 + 1) = 700¼ mm

Comparison of the calculated spare-wheel-well diameter with calculated external tyre diameters, suggests that either a 205/65 R16C or 215/65 R16C tyre (the preferred options on my 7 x 16 inch Mercedes C-Class alloy wheels, with 37 mm offset) should fit comfortably in the spare-wheel-well, provided the spare-wheel-well can be made wide enough; and might possibly even accommodate a 225/65 R1C tyre.

195/65 R16C tyre – predicted external diameter = 660 mm

205/65 R16C tyre – predicted external diameter = 673 mm

215/65 R16C tyre – predicted external diameter = 686 mm


225/65 R16C tyre – predicted external diameter = 699 mm

235/65 R16C tyre – predicted external diameter = 712 mm

All of the above five 65-Series tyres have been readily available from many tyre manufacturers, for possibly more than a decade. They are now virtually the de facto standard-sized tyres for medium & large sized commercial vans here.


andrig's wrote:
I own a 1986 Doka Syncro, and in stock trim that vehicle shouldn't really be driven much past 65. But I have a 2.7 liter engine that makes double stock, and I have suspension upgrades that make it safe. It still gets moved around a little on the highway in strong cross winds, but the suspension is so much better than it just takes a small amount of correction in the steering, and it's perfectly fine.


I was under the impression that VW Transporter single-cab & double-cab (i.e. DoKa – Doppel Kabine) pickups were no longer imported into the USA after the early-1970s owing to the so called European “chicken tax”.

If I recall correctly, the USA specification, VW Transporter T3 (i.e. Vanagon in USA parlance!?!) with fuel-injected, 2•1 litre, flat-four, water-cooled engine was rated at circa 95 horsepower, whereas the British & European specification, high-compression (i.e. 10•5 : 1) engine was rated at 112 horsepower.

British 1987 VW Vanagon Transporter / Caravelle Brochure

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1987_transporter.php

Some optional extras for the 1987 Transporter & Caravelle, including a colour-zoned tachometer

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


British 1987 VW Vanagon Transporter Technical Information Brochure

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1987_transporter_tech.php

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On two-wheel drive versions of the VW Transporter T3 with this 2•1 litre engine, it was mated to a factory-fitted five-speed transaxle. A similar five-speed transaxle was also the standard factory-fitment with the 1•6 litre turbo-diesel and available as a factory-fitted option with all of the other water-cooled engines, from 1983 onward.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1983 British VW Transporter T3, New Water-Cooled Boxer Engine & 5-Speed Transmission

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Even 2 x 95 = 190 horsepower in what is fundamentally a commercial vehicle, is just insane, although I recall that some of the post-1990, South African specification, VW Transporter T3 models, were factory-fitted with a 2•6 litre, five-cylinder, in-line, water-cooled engine, originating from Audi car models. The main reason for this was to obtain adequate power with a normally-aspirated engine at high altitude where the air is less dense.

I am not sure how one would “upgrade” the suspension of a 1985~90 VW Transporter T3 Syncro, without compromising its off-road capability; although using 16 inch wheels (a factory-fitted option on some VW Transporter T3 Syncros) with 65-Series commercial-van tyres or SUV extra-load tyres might be an acceptable part of the package!?!

Given that you seem to have spent vast amounts of money “upgrading” your 1986 VW Transporter T3 double-cab pickup, did you also include the direct-substitution of a matched pair of twin-lens, cab-door, rear-view mirrors, made by Zanetti GmbH in Switzerland, that would make your vehicle even safer!?!

Bay Window Bus > Minimising the blindspots: The available options?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29296

Zanetti GmbH, Autorückspiegel, Hochbühlweg 7, 3012 Bern, Switzerland.
Tel. +41 31 301 36 16
Fax. +41 31 302 22 01

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net


Last edited by NASkeet on Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:09 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
andrig's
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
andrig's is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
NASkeet wrote:
camit34 wrote:
Sent you a PM

I am interested in going with this Speedhut gauge and your design looks great.

https://www.speedhut.com/ecommerce/product/2944/4-1-2


The 108 mm diameter hole is rather large compared to the height of the dashboard aperture, which I think is 112 mm if my memory serves me correctly.


Owing to my uncertainty regarding the height of the dashboard aperture, I checked the vertical dimension of my original factory-fitted instrument panel. Rather than being 112 mm as I had supposed, I found that my original factory-fitted, right-hand-drive instrument panel is 124½ mm at the control-levers end and 119 mm at the vacant time-clock end.


It's plenty large to accommodate the gauges I have. I had purchased two used clusters to verify all the dimensions against my CAD design and 3D print. There is plenty of space.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

andrig's wrote:
The fuel gauge has a lot of presets for different Ohm readings from the sender, but I'm not sure what the Bay Window Bus Ohm range is on the fuel sender. In any case, the fuel gauge also has a custom programmable feature, and you can just operate the fuel sender by hand (of course has to be out of the tank) and you can program the fuel level accordingly.


Unless one has cut an inspection hole in the ceiling of the fuel-tank compartment (beyond the engine compartment), it would be impossible to remove the fuel-gauge sender until after the fuel tank has been removed from the vehicle, which is either difficult or impossible to do with the engine installed.

Forum Index > Bay Window Bus > Fuel sender access hole, to do or not to do?

https://www.thesamba.com//vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=465431

It’s certainly impossible to do on 1968~79 VW 1300 & 1600 Type 2s with VW Type 1 style air-cooled engines. Even on 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s with VW Type 4 style air-cooled engine, having either twin carburettors or electronic fuel injection, one would first need to remove the air filter housing, inlet manifolds and central plenum, before the fuel tank could be removed, albeit with difficulty. In both cases, complete engine removal would be advisable!

It appears that the process of pre-programming the fuel gauge, might merit further investigation!

andrig's wrote:
In terms of the gauges, there is a warning light that is not shown in the art work for each gauge. So, if oil pressure drops, or oil temperature is too high, a warning light will light. Same with fuel level, as it drops. The idea was to make the gauges look as much like the OEM gauges as possible.


andrig's wrote:
The center speedometer tachometer combination would have the turn signal indicators, and the bright light indicator in it. The two side gauges would have programmable warning lights for each of the gauges, so you don't lose the warning lights.


I strongly suspect that there is a market, for a substitute instrument binnacle and associated instruments which resemble the original factory-fitted items. The only question is whether there is a sufficiently large market for something which is likely to be very expensive!?!

The warning lights are also very important, which should be positioned so that they immediately attract attention and are clearly visible, so must NOT be concealed behind or close to gauge-pointers at the gauge-readings at which the warning lights are activated.

I am not intimately acquainted with all the peculiarities of North American specification, 1968~79 VW Type 2s – T2a & T2b, but overall I suspect that there have been various combinations of NINE or TEN warning lights and tell-tale lights on or in the instrument cluster and instrument binnacle, for all of the following at some time or other:

ONE or TWO (preferably TWO for ergonomic reasons | as standard in my early 1973 model-year VW 1600 Type 2) direction-indicator (i.e. turn-signal or blinker) tell-tale lights [green]

ONE headlamp main-beam (i.e. high-beam) tell-tale light [blue]

ONE side-lights (i.e. parking lights or pilot lights) tell-tale light [green]

ONE ignition (i.e. alternator or dynamo - generator voltage) warning light [red]

ONE low-oil-pressure warning light [red or green]

ONE brake-circuit failure warning light

ONE EGR – Exhaust Gas Recirculation filter-replacement service-interval warning light [red I think]

ONE lamda-sensor or oxygen-sensor service-interval warning light [red I think]

ONE automatic-transmission, oil-overheating warning light [red I think] – I’m unsure about this in relation to the 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s, but it is certainly applicable to VW Type 1 Beetles with semi-automatic transmission

My British-specification, 1973 model-year, black-plastic instrument binnacle, features four moulded knock-out sections for the absent brake-circuit failure warning light, a warning-light unit of the same shape and two circular accessory warning-light units.

If prospective purchasers of your custom-made substitute instrument binnacle, wished or were required to retro-fit, additional warning or tell-tale lights (e.g. trailer direction-indicator repeater tell-tale lamp), how could they be incorporated into the instrument binnacle and/or the Speedhut instruments?

You might recall that various USA-specification, VW Type 1 Beetles with semi-automatic transmission, incorporate SEVEN warning / tell-tale lights and fuel gauge in the speedometer; one of which I anticipate receiving from the USA sometime in the future, for incorporation into my own custom-made plywood instrument panel.

Beetle - Late Model/Super > "Stick-shift" transmission-oil-temp. warning-light

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=228775

Where in the speedometer will the two direction-indicator (i.e. turn-signal in USA parlance) tell-tale lights be positioned? To avoid ambiguity, they should flash individually (unlike the factory-standard circuit, which I modified decades ago!) so that there is a clear indication about whether the right-hand or left-hand direction-indicator has been activated. I have frequently observed drivers who select the wrong direction indicator and seem oblivious to their mistake!

Bay Window Bus > Independent direction-indicator warning light upgrade

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=259622

Noting that many North American 1968~79 VW Type 2 owners like to tow trailers, it might also be useful to incorporate a trailer direction-indicator tell-tale light; something that is mandatory in Great Britain. I also find it useful to have a dipped-beam (i.e. low-beam in USA parlance) tell-tale light [a reminder to switch the headlights off after emerging from a darkened unlit tunnel or a fog bank] as well as a main-beam (i.e. high-beam in USA parlance, which I think is what you meant by bright-light) tell-tale light.

Also keep in mind that all speedometers should ideally be dual-scale, calibrated in both mph and km/h, as is the factory-fitted speedometer in my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, which has large outer numbers for mph and small inner numbers for km/h. Even the export model supplied to New Zealand and possibly Australia which both use km/h, have dual-scale speedometers, calibrated in both km/h (large outer numbers) and mph (small inner numbers).

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » 40+ Years With A 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 “HL Special”

http://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29933&p=316831#p316831

The 1968~79 VW Type 2 owners in the USA are likely to be vexed after buying such an expensive installation, if they go on an excursion to Canada, Mexico or elsewhere and discover that the speedometer has no kilometre per hour scale! Likewise, similar owners in Canada or Mexico will be unimpressed when they visit the USA, if there is no mile per hour scale.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Spare, second-hand early-model Toledo Smiths speedometer, for my British specification, 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


New Zealand specification, 1974 Triumph Toledo 1500's Smith's speedometer

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Although you refer to an oil-temperature warning light, be advised that if the engine’s air-cooling system is compromised, by either a broken fan belt or seized generator shaft (relatively common in my experience) on VW Type 1 style air-cooled engines, or debris (e.g. oil-wiping rag, pieces of paper or leaf litter, etc) being inducted into the air-cooling system of either VW Type 1 or 4 style air-cooled engines, the engine will seize up or explode before the oil-temperature has changed perceptibly! Illumination of the ignition-warning-light can easily go unnoticed when the VW Type 1 engine’s charging system fails, so I wouldn’t want to rely on it, to indicate that the engine’s air-cooling system might have been compromised!

Consequently, one or more cylinder-head overheat switches, as fitted to Chevrolet Corvair engines, would be more than desirable and have their own dedicated warning-light (preferably flashing), twinned with an audible warning signal for good measure. If one has spent several thousand dollars on a replacement factory-standard or uprated engine, it would be a shame to irreparably damage that engine, for the sake of an adequate warning system!

When in March 1991, the alternator shaft seized on my VW Type 1 style air-cooled engine, the cylinder-head temperature reading, beneath the cylinder-head fastening-nut, closest to the No. 3 exhaust valve, had increased by circa 100ºC in the time required to coast from circa 55~60 mph to a halt on the motorway’s hard shoulder; having turned onto the hard shoulder and slowed down, as soon as I saw the ignition warning light illuminate.

During that period, the oil-temperature reading had not changed perceptibly and I imagine that by the time there had been any noticeable change in oil-temperature, as measured in the crankcase reservoir (i.e. sump) using a dipstick-sender, irreparable damage would already have occurred!

If anyone is tempted to use a T-piece to mount both an oil-temperature sender and an oil-pressure sender to the oil-pressure tapping in the crankcase, then in one word DON’T! This set-up will NOT provide a reliable measure of oil temperature, but merely sense the temperature of the T-piece through the static oil. To measure a representative oil temperature, one needs to either position the gauge sender so that it is immersed in oil in the sump or in oil that is flowing through one of the oil galleries upstream of the oil pump.

andrig's wrote:
Yes, the degree farenheit marking and the PSI marking are quite small, but once you get used to which is which I don't believe drivers will struggle with it. The two scales are so different, that that alone tells you which is which. Oil pressure is never going to 300 PSI, and likewise, oil temperature will almost always be above 100 degrees.


The degrees Fahrenheit (related to thermodynamic temperature in degrees Rankin) and Pounds per Square Inch scales, are both of the same order of magnitude, with both scales being in increments of TENs, so there is still scope for confusion. In stressful situations, rational thought is often impaired, as air-crash investigations have highlighted time and again. One of the aptitude tests for RAF (i.e. Royal Air Force) officer candidates is to simulate situations that require ultra-fast decision making, which cognitively relies inherently on intuition & instinct rather than logical reasoning.

I recall an example of a normally rational person, who during an emergency, declared that he had no coins for the public telephone, to dial 999 (n.b. 911 in the USA), to summon one of the British emergency services (i.e. police, ambulance, fire-brigade, coast guard or bomb squad). For 999 calls, money was not needed, as he had already been fully aware, but during this time of stress, he had forgotten! There is a special COBRA telephone number that I still have, relating to anti-terrorist activities!

Whilst sitting quietly in your workshop, laboratory or art studio, it is easy to be rational about a scale ending in 100 not being for temperature in ºF or a scale ending in 300 not being for pressure in PSI, but when car drivers and aircraft pilots, or nuclear reactor and chemical-process operators are experiencing “information overload”, they are responding instinctively or intuitively, or simply reacting with blind panic. When designing instrumentation systems, one always needs to consider the cognitive psychology of the users and maximise ease of recognition. Printing the words TEMPERATURE and PRESSURE would help to reinforce that!

It is always advisable to make information as unambiguous as possible and minimise the possibility of confusion. By adopting pressure and temperature measurements in Bar and ºC, the calibrated scales immediately differ by at least one order of magnitude. This is probably why speedometers have scales in actual mph or km/h, whilst modern engine-tachometers have scales of single digits x1000 rpm

If the Volkswagen factory had fitted instruments with calibrated scales, they would have been in metric units. I suspect that only the USA and Liberia (a haven for freed American slaves) still use archaic measurement units for domestic, commercial, industrial, scientific and technical applications.

Neighbouring Canada and Mexico certainly use the metric system there, and I am sure wealthy 1968~79 VW Type 2 owners there would appreciate having their temperature and pressure scales calibrated in ºC and Bar. Both of these measurement units are closely linked to normal daily life.

The degrees Celcius scale from 0ºC to 100ºC, corresponds to the ice-point and boiling point of pure water at standard atmospheric pressure, so if the temperature is below 0ºC you immediately know it’s freezing and if above 100ºC, your pressurised water-based engine coolant is in imminent danger of boiling. This is much more convenient than trying to recall the arbitrary values of 32ºF and 212ºF, correspond to the freezing and boiling points of water, based upon a different historical means of calibration.

A pressure of 1 Bar corresponds to normal atmospheric pressure at sea level, so if you inflate your tyres to a gauge-reading (air-pressure difference between the external atmosphere and the air inside the tyre) of 3 Bar, you know that the actual air pressure in the tyre is (3+1) times atmospheric pressure, without getting involved in any complicated calculations; recalling that 1 Bar = 14•7 psi.

In the 3rd decade of the 21st Century, it’s high time the USA caught up with the rest of the World and consigned those archaic units to the history books! Even in Great Britain, the spiritual home of Imperial units (not including anachronistic US gallons!), we have largely adopted metric units for almost everything, although there are still a few diehards. We even buy our petrol (i.e. gasoline in USA parlance) in litres rather than Imperial gallons (i.e. 4•546 litres), so quoting fuel-consumption rates in mpg is also rather outdated!

About 40 years ago, when I was a university research student, investigating thermal insulation and heat transfer, I received the following complementary publication from the USA, in which the units for temperature [ºC or K in S.I. system | thermodynamic temperature Kelvin in K = ºC + 273•15], thermal conductivity [W/(m•K) in S.I. system], thermal conductance [W/m²•K) in S.I. system], thermal resistivity [(m•K)/W in S.I. system] and thermal resistance [(m²•K)/W in S.I. system], were primarily in the metric S.I. system of units, accompanied by a confusing mishmash of Imperial units, such as hr•ft²•ºF/Btu•in for thermal resistivity, which involves five units instead of just three.

“An Assessment of Thermal Insulation Materials and Systems for Building Applications”, BNL-50862, June 1978 - Prepared by Brookhaven National Laboratory with the assistance of Dynatech R/D Company, for U.S. Department of Energy Assistant Secretary for Conservation and Solar Applications, Division of Buildings and Community Systems, Washington, DC 20545, under Contract No. EY-76-C-02-0016.

I tried performing heat loss calculations using the USA versions of Imperial units, but got into a horrible muddle and reverted to the simpler and much more logical, coherent and tidier S.I. system of metric units, based upon the fundamental units of metres, kilograms & seconds.

andrig's wrote:
I believe Speedhut would allow me to do more with colors between the tick marks, as I did on the fuel gauge. It's an interesting option that I can explore.


I certainly think this would be of benefit to many drivers, who have yet to develop an intuitive sense of what gauge readings might be considered optimal, acceptable or outside the acceptable range. In a World where a large proportion of drivers get confused about the meanings of even the most basic, common warning-light functions, I would regard this as almost essential. Different colour zones for the tachometer are also helpful, as found on the optional, factory-fitted tachometers for the 1983~90 VW Transporter T3, featured in my 1987 brochure.

British 1987 VW Vanagon Transporter / Caravelle Brochure

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1987_transporter.php

Optional extras for the 1987 Transporter & Caravelle, including a colour-zoned tachometer with integral gauges for fuel level and coolant temperature

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


andrig's wrote:
The price of the lifters is a very competitive price for tool steel lifters. Many that have been on the market were much higher, and they are in line with the ones still on the market. You cannot compare prices of tool steel lifters to standard cast iron ones. The price of M2 tool steel is 8 times higher than cast iron, just for the raw material.


I am unfamiliar with the advantages if any, of using “tool-steel cam followers! Does it significantly increase the serviceable, reliable life-span of the valve train; specifically that of the cam lobes and cam followers? If not, what useful purpose would there be in making a superior product at several times the cost!?!

andrig's wrote:
On the next level dash product, yes, the price is high, but the trim that goes down the center of the dash is billet 304 stainless steel, as is the radio face plate. That isn't cheap either, just from a material perspective. They are CNC machines from solid billet, not cast. So, it's definitely a high end product for someone looking to do something really special. If you have ever seen the replacement trim that is sold for around $50, it is half the size of the original, and it's paper thin. The plastic clips they use are not the greatest either, and it's advertised as "German Quality". There isn't much quality there at all.


[quote=”naskeet”]Based upon my own experiences of driving, I am extremely wary of having any reflective surfaces within either the main or peripheral zones of vision of the driver. This is the main reason that I avoid having chromium-plated or polished stainless-steel gauge bezels, steering-wheel spokes, windscreen wipers or other components.

It’s also the reason that anti-dazzle rear-view mirrors were introduced. Even satin-black painted surfaces can reflect some sunlight, which might be the reason why British & European specification 1968~79 VW Type 2s, had a textured, matt-black painted surface for the 1974 model-year onward.[/quote]

I am not a great fan of plastic mounting clips either, which become brittle with time, heat and sunlight exposure.

My father had a British specification, 1964 VW 1200 Type 1 Beetle (registration No. PYJ 286) costing circa £500, from 1964 to 1968, but I don’t recall it having any interior bright-work trim.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This car was super ceded by a 1968 Daf 44, with 0•85 litre, two-cylinder air-cooled engine and variomatic transmission, which from the traffic lights, could out-accelerate a Jaguar E-Type for at least the first 100 yards. From 1972 to 1977, he had a 1972 Fiat 124 Special T, with 1•4 litre, 80 horsepower engine, as used in the Lancia Beta. Over the subsequent years, he also had a 1977 Honda Civic 1500, 1982 Honda Accord 1600, 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4 and a 2004 Seat Leon Cupra 20VT. None of these had any interior bright-work trim either, so far as I can remember.

Have you ever considered offering the “Next Level Dash” product minus the garish bright-work trim and radio-aperture blanking plate, which seem to account for a large proportion of the cost? You might gain some more potential buyers, who don’t favour bright-work and would be unwilling to pay obscene sums of money to have an unnecessary embellishment that they don’t particularly want.

If owners wanted to fit a radio, the custom-made radio-aperture blanking plate, would simply become a very expensive item of scrap stainless-steel! It might actually be cheaper to buy a reasonably decent four-band (i.e. short, medium & long wave, plus VHF/FM) period-correct radio, rather than have the stainless-steel radio-aperture blanking plate!?!

Mid-1970s vintage, Javelin 9044, single-speaker, mono radio, with Long Wave: 150~280 kHz; Medium Wave: 540~1600 kHz; Short Wave: 5•95~6•2 MHz; VHF (aka FM): 88~108 MHz

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Machining solid billets of material creates a lot of material waste (which it might be possible to collect, clean and reprocess, but it would be very energy intensive), as well as creating the requirement to recover the machining lubricant cum coolant.

I have never looked at the cost or quality of replacement trim for any vehicle. A curse on polished bright-work trim! It has no particularly useful purpose either inside or outside a vehicle, and can potentially create a safety hazard as well as encouraging damaging corrosion by its presence! Even polished chromium-plated bumpers & over-riders, plus sloping front & rear windows have been the source of hazardous glare from reflected sunlight, as I have personally experienced. Why so many Americans are addicted to “bling”, I shall never understand!

When the external trim and/or mounting clips on my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, caused corrosion behind it, I deliberately left them off after I had removed the rust and touched-up the paintwork. The car looks much nicer without it; reminiscent of the Cal-Look! To spend a large sum of money on something like trim, that has no useful purpose, is an anathema to me.

There were other much more useful and appropriate components that were omitted, such as a full-complement of three rear-view mirrors [preferably twin-lensed for the door or wing mirrors), plus suspension anti-roll bars, adjustable steering column (with main lighting switch and windscreen wiper & washer stalk-switch) and door-aperture anti-scuff plates (standard on the very-closely related Triumph Dolomite 1850 & Sprint] which I later retro-fitted to my car together with a few other useful things from the 1972~80 Triumph Dolomite range!

andrig's wrote:
So, yes, those two products are expensive, but they are very high quality from very high quality materials, and expensive materials.


One of the overriding concerns in engineering, is that of material selection and manufacturing processes. Cheap does not necessarily mean poor quality and expensive doesn’t always mean high quality! It’s all a matter of striking a balance between cost, durability and required life-span. There is little purpose in replacement components outlasting the car by several decades. Through careful design and material selection, manufacturing costs can be significantly reduced. Small-scale production is always going to pose problems with pricing!

andrig's wrote:
I have more products in development that will be a lot less expensive, but I like really nice stuff, and I don't want to sell cheap, low quality products.


I don’t want to buy cheap, low-quality products either, but there is a limit to how much I am able and willing to pay, for high-quality products; especially if they are not essential.

andrig's wrote:
Next month I'll have the first new cooling fan ever designed for the Type 1 aircooled engine, and it's patent pending.


That is a bold claim to make! Applying for a patent does not necessarily mean that one will be granted and there might be a “new cooling fan” that has already been designed, manufactured and sold in another country, for which there might or might not be a national patent.

You might wish to check out the South African air-cooled VW scene, if you haven’t already done so; especially as they have had a local Volkswagen factory in Uitenhage for several decades and I certainly know of one person who independently developed a cooling system for use with VW Type 4 style air-cooled engines in VW Type 1 Beetles and 1950~67 VW Type 2 Transporters.

http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/

Although the principles of fan engineering have been well established for many decades, there is probably room for improvement. There are already two long-established varieties of cooling fan for the VW Type 1 style air-cooled engine.

The familiar centrifugal fan, as factory-fitted in the VW Type 1 Beetles and derivatives (e.g. VW Type 181/182 – Thing, Trekker, etc), plus the 1950~79 VW Type 2 Transporter. Less well-known is the axial-flow fan, as used in the Brazilian-built, front-engined, air-cooled VW 1600 Gol (n.b. I do mean Gol rather than Golf), similar to what was used in the Citroën 2CV and Trabant. Let us not forget the vertical-axis, axial-flow fan used on the Chevrolet Corvair, of which an after-market version was later created in Germany I think, for use with VW Type 4 style engines.

VW Gol cooling system, for VW Type 1 style, air-cooled engines

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=383970

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The above picture, was originally featured in the following British, VW magazine article:

Neil Birkitt, "It's not a Golf, it's a Gol", VWs from Abroad, VW Motoring, December 1995, Pages 68~70.

There have certainly been obvious developments in axial-flow fans, of which the swept-back propellers of modern turbo-prop aircraft (e.g. the latest generation of Lockheed C130 Hercules transport) and the bypass-fan blades of modern Rolls Royce engines for airliners like the Boeing 777 and Airbus A380 are prime examples. I don’t know what if any developments there have been re centrifugal fans.

andrig's wrote:
I also have some other engine components in testing right now, and they will be reasonable in terms of price, compared to their competition, but be much better designed.

Having been involved with aircooled VW's since 1982, I see a lot of very low quality parts in the aftermarket. I want to create really high quality parts, that I know work well and better than their competition, if there is any competitive product in the space.


Your ambition is laudable, but do not lose sight of the need for things to be affordable to people other than the conspicuously wealthy! Remember that Volkswagen means people’s car; a philosophy shared by Major Ivan Hirst of the British REME (i.e. Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers), who was instrumental in saving the humble Beetle in 1945, from the ashes of the Third Reich, which eventually led to Beetle production figures outstripping every other car model before and since, including the Model-T Ford.

I have been involved with air-cooled 1968~79 VW Type 2s since January 1975, when I was 19 years old, but back in those days, there were relatively few after-market parts available for these vehicles in Great Britain; of which two were the locally-produced Minnow-Fish and Reece-Fish carburettors; both of which were conspicuously used in motor sport.

By the late-1980s, all sorts of strange stuff was being imported from the USA, but the only thing we bought was a SCAT “Monza” style exhaust system, which lasted from mid-1983 until mid-1991. Disturbingly, it lacked a proper inlet-manifold preheat system, for the AD-Series, VW 1600 Type 1 style engine; which resulted in chronic carburettor-icing problems, when I drove our 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 during the winters of 1987/88 and 1990/91.

You’re right in saying that there is a lot of “cheap & nasty” stuff on offer, some of it more expensive than it should be; including pattern-part exhaust systems from certain well-known manufacturers.

Board index » Technical » Advice » Ill-fitting exhaust heat exchangers & silencers

http://www.aircooledvwsa.co.za/viewtopic.php?f=4&a...06#p124306

One thing I have yet to find, are affordable, well-fitting, long-life exhaust heat-exchangers, with good heat-transfer characteristics!?! Sourcing stainless-steel 4-into-1 exhaust manifolds (4-into-2-into-1 would be better for a road-going vehicle) and silencers is relatively easy.
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net


Last edited by NASkeet on Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:52 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
NASkeet
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2947
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
NASkeet is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

ivwshane wrote:
What about the odometer or a trip counter?


I would NOT be surprised if having an ODOMETER to record the mileage and/or kilometreage of the vehicle is a legal requirement and it is certainly useful to determine when one's next service is due unless one also retro-fits an engine-hour meter, that in some ways might be even more useful.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Aesthetically speaking, the disposition of the speedometer and tachometer looks odd! Is there any practical reason why it could not have been symmetrically disposed, with the speedometer above and the tachometer below!?!
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22568
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Idea for Bay Window Bus Product - Would like some feedback Reply with quote

Remember to price your pilots at 150% of target volume price , not 50%

This mistake has been made so many times I’m almost too embarrassed to charge $650 an hour to tell companies this. Almost.
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.