Stock Syncro Suspension is Better than You May Think

[syncro.org]

There is nothing like competition to prove the value and performance of components, modifications and new technology.

As anyone who has followed Grand Prix motocross knows, the changes in suspension design over the decades has been amazing. If you go back to the first Grand Prix in 1957 and compare the suspension then to what the factory bikes have today, the change is breathtaking. Indeed, the evolution from 1972 to 1976 alone - from vertical shocks to laid down shocks to mono-shocks - represents a huge leap in technology and performance.

There have likewise been a lot of changes in syncro suspension in recent years. I introduced new coil springs in 2000. That was a small step. Eric Abercrombie took things much further and introduced more or less production coil-over suspension in the front and external reservoir Bilsteins in the rear, with internally adjustable compression and rebound damping, and a wide variety of spring rates. [John Wessels was the first to do the coil-over set-up, but he did not bring it to full production level, as Eric did, and Eric also invented the rear pivoting spring perch.] The recent introduction of the Fox shocks made for syncros is a nice follow-up on John and Eric's initial breakthrough work.

I had the privilege of driving Eric's syncro the other day with his standard coil-overs. He has it dialed in nearly perfectly. The damping and spring rate are superb. What is remarkable is that his 6000 pound westy drives and handles as well as or better than an empty hardtop. And the ride is far superior to a hardtop.

However, the big news out of the competition at syncro de mayo this year was just how well the stock syncro suspension performs and stacks up against the most exotic set-ups available - at least on an empty hardtop.

As you may have heard, Brian Johnson won the Syncro Cup competition on a bone stock syncro. And Craig Forney very well may have beaten him, or come in second, had his rear locker not failed. These guys were up against syncros set up with .org springs, Eric's coil-overs, John Wessels's coil overs , Tom's coils overs (all bilsteins) and the Fox Shocks. Check out the videos to see for yourself just how well the stock suspension performs against the most cutting edge set-ups available.

I will start with Brian's run. Again, he took first place on a bone stock syncro - although he was not the fastest, he got a perfect score for not blowing any of the obstacles. Notice how well the stock suspension handles the rough stuff:


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Next is Craig. He suffered from lack of ground clearance and the loss of his locker at the end, but he is smooth and the stock suspension does a great job on his hard top:


Link


Now we will get into the modified set ups, starting with just after-market springs and moving to the more exotic setups from there. Here's Dale with a set of my old syncro.org springs, that are probably a little stiff for a hartop. Unfortunately, there is not footage of his entire run. But the toughest sections are covered:


Link


Here's John Wessels with the impressive coil-over design he made for syncromog way back in 2000. John had second fastest time. Again, only partial coverage:


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Here's Adam with Eric's coil-overs, although he did not have time to get them dialed in perfectly before the event. Only partial footage here as well:


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Here's Paul with the Fox Shocks. Paul is a very smooth driver and you can see that his suspension is definitely working great, although Paul did not take the tougher bonus section at the very end.


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Here's Tom, who is one of the top drivers, and who who runs a coil-over set-up he designed with softer than stock springs. He had fastest time but lost points for going outside the flags. Tom got a little sideways going up the final hill and ran into some trouble, so it is difficult to make the comparison on that section:


Link


And finally, here's Matt Quilter in the only full westy to enter the competition. He still took second overall, tying on points and missing 1st overall only by about 15 seconds. Unfortunately I do not know what his suspension set up is, but the video is instructive because you can see the effect of the added weight of a full westy.


Link


I am a suspension guy and I love the trick set-ups. But there's no denying that the stock syncro suspension with stock springs on a hard-top performs pretty well.

As for engine conversions, Tom's subaru had the fastest time. John's 2.4 ecotech (190 hp 2.4) had the second fastest time and Dale's 2.4 GW WBX had third fastest time. But driving skill has a lot to do with that and those three guys are among the top pros off road. Once thing noteworthy is that the 2.1 WBX's did fine and due to their lower power did not break traction where the more powerful conversions did going up the last hill. (But that's consolation not a feature!)

John discusses this problem at the awards ceremony here:

http://youtu.be/3U_8xOwCF8M?t=3m33s

Lastly, there's no denying that the stock springs, while they work really well on the hard tops and Dokas, are are just a little too soft and tend to bottom too easily on the westys. They also lack ideal height even on the hard-tops as the videos of Brian and Craig demonstrate on the last obstacle. But that's nothing a little shimming can't improve for only a few dollars.

Steve

[bosruten]

Great thread, thanks for sharing!
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'87 Syncro Weekender

[syncro.org]

Thanks!

Here's David Hines' Run, which I just uploaded after John Glover sent me the footage.

Like Adam. he is running Eric's set up, but his springs are stiffer than Adam's. They're closer to stock whereas Adam, like Tom, is running softer than stock, but their hard top vans are set up purely for off roading. Still, notice how David's front wheels do not leave the ground on the steep hill climb the way Tom's did. I will have to check to see if their valving is different. It looked like Tom's rebound damping might be a little too soft.


Link

[ALIKA T3]

I'm convinced just by looking at the Syncro movie advertisements from back then
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Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

[FrankenSubySyncro]

[Jake de Villiers]

[syncro.org]

[buspor63]

I'm glad to hear that news because my upgrade budget is less than you might think
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Imagine that, theres not an "h" in either Westfalia or Syncro?

[euromog]

I just want to clarify that the front coil over setup that I now have and ran at this year's SdM is an update from what I previously had. I have updated the type of Bilstein's that I use over the years. This newest version I am using a 5" diameter spring that is 13" tall. With this spring I get more up travel without the coil bind that the 2.5" springs will give when going to a softer spring rate. I am also now using a 5100 series shock in the front with a 450lb spring. For me when going faster speeds the 400lb springs were bottoming out too much. With two people up front and camping gear I think a 425lb spring would have been too soft when driving at speed, especially out in the desert. For slow rock crawling the 400lb spring worked great. May sound exotic but far less expensive than the Fox shocks and no issues with the axles rubbing the shock body. The bump stop height is correct so that my upper control arms don't bash the boxes under the front seats. It is also about 6lbs lighter each side than the Trailmaster shock/spring kit on the front. It is the best setup I have driven so far.

On the rear I am still using what I installed back in 2001. Custom wound 14" tall 350lb springs. Bilsteins are great but they don't make the length of travel shock that works best in my application. So I use Doetsch Tech Pre runner shocks in the rear. Even after 11 years they still work great and are 2/3rds the cost of Bilstein's.

The suspension kits I offer now use the Doetsch Tech shocks in the rear. They use a huge 46mm piston that control the rear weight of the Syncro well. They have an off set bottom mount so the large diameter bodies will clear the stock trailing arms without having to modify the mounts on them. For the current kit rear springs I am now using a 5" diameter with a pivoting bottom perch. This design is completely different than what Eric A. has been offering. I have one of these complete systems installed on a tin top Syncro and so far the owner thinks it rides great.

[NZer]

I haven done any off roading in my Westie but this thread isnt really a big surprise from what I have experienced. My Vanagon rides down the better than most vehicles Ive been in and its 24 years old. Loves driving down cobbled streets as rough as they are! I always look for the rough road because of the way she rides!
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A sad looking 88 Westfalia, MT 2.1 with 150k on the clock and several issues!

[insyncro]

[euromog]

[syncro.org]

I have talked to Tom, Adam, John and Dave about their set-ups. And my guesses were 100% correct in terms of who had stiffer damping and spring rates relative to each other based entirely on watching the youtubes.

I did not venture a guess as to what the exact spec was, just who had stiffer/softer relative to the others. I have to attribute some of that to my years of doing testing on MX bikes and having watched the videos numerous times. But it does speak to the value of the videos. During the actual competition it is much harder to remember everything to make the comparison across the board. This is why (per Professor Bailey) it is common for racing teams to study films.

I am jumping in my syncro and heading down to santa cruz now so I can mount my new softer syncro springs tomorrow that finally just arrived from the factory on Friday. Fingers crossed.

I am hoping Tom and Adam will chime in to clarify on damping and spring rates. All four have different damping and three different spring rates. And Paul had the Fox Shocks to make it five different set ups. Hence the value of getting them all together on the same course at once. What fun!

Steve

[Jake de Villiers]

[syncro.org]

I am glad you were able to see some differences in the videos. It's fun to be able to make some distinctions and comparisons even if the variables may not be all that precise. At least they are on the same terrain.

I agree that speed is a big factor and valving may not have played a role, but i did take the different speeds into account. I also considered that Tom has softer springs than David. Without seeing the obstacle up close it, it seemed possible that Tom's valving may be off a tad, and allowing more wheel hop than necessary, and could possibly be fine-tuned to get rid of some of it.

In talking to Tom, i found out that he and David do indeed have different valving (and springs). I haven't yet been able to nail down whether the valving difference could account for any of the difference in how the two vans handled that obstacle. I also found out that Adam's valving was softer than both of theirs, and too soft in Adam's opinion. He was testing the shocks for the first time. The springs were the same as Tom's. The speed differential is big, though.

So, if you take into account the two vans that ran stock springs and Dale's van with just older syncro.org springs (and OMEs I believe), the videos show 7 different suspension set-ups, 5 different coil-over set-ups.

And FWIW, here's a photo from early this morning of two syncro.org test vehicles on hwy 1 north of Santa Cruz, California testing the final prototypes of the new syncro springs that arrived on Friday. So far, so good! In that photo, ride height is 19" on the westy and about 20" on the hardtop. The springs are not fully seated yet, having less than 100 miles on them in this photo.

14" wheels on both vans. They will be tested on 15" and 16" wheels by the end of the 4th of July holiday.

Update:

Some other pics from the grueling install and testing:

Too tall? - but not fully seated yet.

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This rear spring will permit full suspension travel.

Steve

[jakebayless]

I am looking forward to the soft springs being available & giving me a teensy bit more tire space! Is there a list I can get myself added to?
~jake

[syncro.org]

Jake, i'm going to start a separate thread on hartop syncro springs to get some input on height and stiffness preferences. I think this is now wandering too far off the original topic of this thread into something new.

[erste]