NYC-Based co-ownership / coop for westfalia?

[zachzon]

Hi there,
I have been reading and researching vanagons and wanted to see if anyone had ever done a co-ownership model to purchase and share a van.

Not sure if anyone else is in our position, but we'd like to use one a couple times in the summer and fall. I haven't found a lot of rentals around NYC metro area - closest I've found is Maine which is quite a trek.

It does not make a lot of financial sense for us to fully own a second vehicle in Brooklyn, so I wanted to reach out and see if other local families might be interested in talking about going in on purchasing a nicer condition westfalia that we could share -- or if someone already owns one, one that we could rent. Not sure if this makes sense or if it's viable (or if this is even the right forum), but figured this might be the place to start.

[Mal evolent]

this is done with aircraft all the time. it never works.

one guy is the sparkplug. he gets it going and keeps it going. he is the most frequent user of the aircraft.

one user eats fish in it and stinks it up. one user smokes a cigar in it. somebody leaves trash behind. someone else does not report a maintenance problem.

everybody has a gripe about some other users care, operation, cleanliness. the cleanest guy is inherently never happy with the less fussy users.

eventually everyone develops a seething rage, which they take out on the sparkplug, who end up buying out the other users.

a friend worked on the railroad. he said that when one crew used one caboose, it was well maintained. when they switched to grabbing random cabooses ( cabeese? ) from a pool, they all became rolling rest stop toilets
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[CanStan]

I don't have any good advice other than that sounds like a nightmare. It's a lot of work / time / money to get a Vanagon reliable, and more of the same to keep them that way. Even if you buy a 'nice' or 'reliable' or 'restored' one, I promise there will be a long list of things to do. I couldn't imagine being on the hook for 1/2 the cost when the other owner damages or breaks something. If you slam the sliding door and the handle snaps off, does he owe you half the cost of the new one? Or are you liable for that? It is a weak, worn old handle, so it's not really your fault it finally snapped. Then you would have to figure out which one of you is going to spend their weekend doing maintenance and repairs, agreeing on modifications or upgrades to split costs on, etc. In my mind, it would end badly. If you want the old humming wheel bearings replaced so they won't explode on your long road trip, but they would rather get every last mile out of them, what now? Finding someone on the exact same wave length as far as maintenance schedules, driving style, mechanical aptitude, disposable income (for unexpected repairs), etc. would be tough.
There are probably 2 really good VW friends I would ever consider lending my VW to, because they know VW's and would treat it like their own. And even then, I don't think I could ever share one with them.

In all honesty, and I know this isn't what you want to hear, but a modern camper van would make the most sense for a 'shared' vehicle like that.
You're going to spend $20,000 on a decent Vanagon, with more every year to make it what you want / need. Or you'll spend $5000 now and another $15,000 making it road-trip reliable. If you only want to use it a couple times a year, it's going to take a lot of years for that to make financial sense. (Also, what if the co-owner wants to put on 50,000 miles camping every other weekend. Are you still on the hook for maintenance and repairs when you drive a fraction of the miles?)

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I genuinely hope you can work something out. But I'm just thinking realistically.
If you do find a solution, I would be super interested to hear about it!

[Abscate]

If I can co-own two sailboats worth about 1M you can figure out a 20k Vanagon

A good garage and a pool of maintenance money at about 20 cents per mile charged to each user, once the refurb is complete would do it,

Each user pays for a cleaning after use at a detailer

Paid secure storage
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[Pruneman99]

I think it sounds like a disaster of an idea. I just don't see any way that works out well.

Rent an RV.

[Glenn]

Good luck dealing with the cost of repairs.
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[zachzon]

Lots of good feedback and thoughts here. NYers can be pretty enterprising to find ways of reduce costs of living here. For instance, we have owner-owned co-ops buildings so a group of families can self-own their building, so I am not sure it is impossible. Also, many people are not going to want the full time responsibility of a vehicle. Like most things, renting is probably a lot easier. Maybe we can connect with a local owner who wants to rent out a couple time a year?

I like the suggestion of paying per mile. That $ goes into a fund for repairs, etc. For example, four families put $5k in for the van, each pay $50/month for parking, and the pay some amount per mile for usage. The usage would fund the repair fund. Someone would need to administer and hold the funds. A little more advanced might be to rent the van out from time to time as a way to create a repair fund.

An old van seems like a horrible investment, but this seems like one model to lower the costs of ownership. Similar to a time share I guess. Yeah, it's probably easier to find a van to rent for when we need it. Just kicking around ideas.

[CanStan]

My nightmare scenario actually goes like this:
4 weeks into ownership, someone takes the van out for a weekend. The head gasket leaks, but instead of having it towed to the shop (or to whoever in the ownership group is the repair guy), he carries on, overheats it, and seizes the engine. He could have stopped when the repair was $1000, but now it's a $5000 repair. Since he's only responsible to pay 1/4 of the bill, each other owner needs to pony up $1250 because the repair fund only has $200 in it.
Then one person wants a high dollar Go Westy engine, one thinks a Subaru conversion is the best option, while another thinks a $500 Craigslist engine is the right answer.
I'd admire anyone who can make it work, in a civilized way, without lawyers being involved. I have my doubts, but if Abscate makes it work with boats, maybe there's a way to make this work too?

[Abscate]

20,000 acquisition costs
5k refurbishment cost, excess rolled into Repair and maintenance.

4 groups put in in 6k

Rent at 30 cpm, keep RM balance at 5k

3-5 year commitment, if you walk away, you walk away empty handed.

The hard to find missing ingredient is the killer Vanagon repair shop, but Andrew Flint up here in Nassau ( RENSS county) fits that bill if you can get him on board

From a user perspective you get at ten vacations over 5 years at 500 each plus mileage. With 4 groups, you could get monthly access at minimum

If you are bothered by paying for someone else’s mistake on a shared item, this model isn’t for you. When I loan a car to someone in need, I accept that it can get wrecked against the Kharmic good

You have to keep this cash basis to keep it clean. The minute someone says I did the oil change so I want parts and labor credit, you are doomed.

Collision and comp of course.

Minimum rental period paid up front to keep the RM kitty flush
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[TDCTDI]

Eh, that’d be like loaning your wife out to all those same individuals, do you really want her back after she’s made the rounds? That may be your thing, at least you know where those mystery stains came from.
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[Abscate]

When we were young and poor , my wife had to trick out to make rent.

First night , she came back and said “I made $100 and a quarter’?

“Who paid the quarter?”

‘All of them”
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[TDCTDI]

[skills@eurocarsplus]

i see this ending badly. the first thing to get the ax when the chips are down is shit that isn't needed. then it becomes a buyout issue.

between insurance, storage and maintenance i just see a war. not only that, but you'll want to use it the same weekend they want to use it.

we have a family beach house in RI. year after year it's been a war over who gets what week. then it went to revolving weeks. then some members of the family trade weeks. it's a fucking mess. and of course those who want to 'cash out' of it and collect cash for their percentage of it can't get anyone else in the family to buy them out....so on and on it goes....

what i've learned over the years...99.9% of the time a partnership is the only ship designed to sink
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[Abscate]

One of my business partners:

3M Maine oceanfront estate , 6 family members with stake.

They split all maintenance costs, buyout value is $1

It’s big enough they can all visit at same time.

They inherited the right to enjoy the property, if they sell , the net goes to charity. That stops the shinola.

Smart great great Gramdma
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[zachzon]

Thanks, there is a lot of great feedback, including some of the challenges. I still think it's a potential model. I see it as splitting the costs and risk amongst 4 families (owners), rather than taking it on solely. The hope is a co-owner would be more cautious than some run of the mill person renting a van with no financial ramifications for ruining it. Anyways, thanks for the feedback. I'm sure there are at least 4 families crazy enough to try this, the challenge is finding the right mix of co-owners.

[Abscate]

I've got family in Brooklyn. Chances of finding four crazy families is excellent i
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[my59]

[zachzon]

[Abscate]

[danfromsyr]

just rent someone else's van when YOU want to go on an adventure.
if you only do one epic trip a year, it'll still take ~10+yrs for the ROI to cross over if you had bought one..

and someone else is on the hook for parking/maintenance/storage/insurance.

https://www.outdoorsy.com/
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