Exhaust woes

[jAndrew]

My 89 Syncro Doka had a badly rusted and leaky exhaust. Go a new stainless one from GoWesty. I couldn't get the bolts off due to the rust. Tried penetrating liquid but did not want to heat them. So I took it to a reputable place that works on Euro vehicles. They had the same trouble. They've had it for 4 work days and during that time soaked them and heated over and over. They called today to tell me they broke one off anyway. They seem to not be sure of what to do next and say they have reached out to some guys that work on air cooled VWs to get some opinions on the best course of action.

Thinking someone here that give some input on what to do. I need the truck back on the road as soon as I can but need it fixed right. What's the best course of action here?

[bobbyblack]

That is a hard story, and one that too many of have lived through.

Best advice on the STUDS is to use a tiny cutoff wheel and cut the nut. I do it on two sides, and then chisel the bits off, then chase the threads.

One older fella that eventually slurred himself off this forum says to put a slightly larger nut over the broken fastener, mig weld it to the broken stub, and count to ten, then wrench it out. I've had mixed results following his method.

In any case, it is far easier to do with the engine out of the rig. I've done it both ways, and can attest to engine-out being the way to go. Yes, very difficult decision based on taking it to a shop, and I feel for you in that capacity.

djkeev has some interesting pictures of tools used to center a drill bit on a broken fastener. I'm confidant he will chime in here when he gets a break from his tintop build project.

Good luck,

-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[jAndrew]

[jAndrew]

Talked to the guys at the shop again and while they knew they can weld a nut on they are saying they doubt it will work AND they haven't even tried on the others.

I asked them if they couldn't get the new exhaust on if they chased the threads they said no.

Thinking I will have to have it towed back home and get the heads off.

[MarkWard]

Some engines have bolts holding the exhaust to the head. Others have studs. I've seen both and combinations of both.

Any experienced mechanic can deal with broken bolts and studs. The heads should not need to be pulled. But the person doing the repair is likely going to need a 90 degree drill, some sharp drill bits and a tap set. Having an 8mm Timesert kit on hand is also a plus.

Since the exhaust is being discarded. Cut the exhaust off at the flanges to give clear access. The mechanic dealing with the broken off stud and can use the exhaust flange to drill the broken fastener centered. Very important. Done correctly, you can then collapse the remaining threads and get them out.

Yes it's a terrible task, but an tech worth his pay should be able to do this. If you are towing it, take it to a shop that can deal with broken studs or bolts.

Obviously it's better if you can save the stud by removing the nut, but if bolts have been used, It's likely you can heat with a torch all day long and some are going to snap. What's weird is the last GW exhaust I installed for an owner had bolts not studs supplied. Took it upon my self to fit studs. The chances of cross threading a bolt are too high on an exhaust system that attaches at multiple points.
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[jAndrew]

[MarkWard]

If they have had the van for 4 weeks, it sounds like they are scared. We got really good at drilling broken exhaust stud on the Audi 5000's back in the day. The manifolds were warping and the studs would snap usually on cylinder 5.

We had to pull the intake and exhaust and there was just enough room to get in there with a 90 degree drill and get them out. That was on flat rate and it was one of those jobs that the longer you took, the less time it took.

Vehicles have to be pretty old to have broken or seized fasteners. So, if they are doing parts replacing on newer vehicles, this could be a challenge. As long as they don't drill them off center, or worse snap a drill bit.

I would not waste my time trying to back the seized broken section out with a reverse drill bit or extractor. Over time, the steel threads really hook into the aluminum and drilling it slightly undersize will be quicker and probably a better result. Good luck.
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[djkeev]

Not just I but many skilled people have chimed in here!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575480&highlight=

Depending which exhaust to head fastener broke, the difficulty of repair will Vary due to access.

Odds are high that whoever you are paying to do this job is not experienced with rusty seized fasteners.

You would be best served to get it away from them before they break more!

Sadly, You will probably owe them money for creating yet more work to repair.

Dave
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[jAndrew]

[djkeev]

[jAndrew]

[16CVs]

What bolts are broken? Why were you opposed to using heat? I agree with others that a Dremel tool and some patience go along way here.

When I was growing up my Dad had a small set of Smith's Oxy /Act torches and he would get a small tip and go around the bolt until it was red hot and then whack it with a hammer and then some penetrant and then heat again and they would always spin off with a wrench. If the stud was compromised then that's a different story.

This is why exhaust nuts are copper coated and generally the sacrificial part of an exhaust system. There are multiple way to extract that stud, from weld a nut
on it to clearance drilling to just undersized. I have a set of left hand drill bits which really help loosen it up as when you are drilling it is trying to remove and not tighten it up even more.

Fire up the torch or get some Map gas in your Propane set up.

Stacy
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[stuzbot]

I feel your pain!

Not long ago I spent 3 days wrestling with a load of snapped off manifold bolts. One of which was a complete bar steward...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738664

...in the end none of the various extractors or left-hand drill bits did any good and I ended up getting it out with lots of PlusGas, some careful drilling, hammering an Allen Key into the hole and twisting it out v-e-e-r-y carefully.

If a bungling amateur like me, with no proper equipment managed it, I'm amazed a supposedly professional setup like a garage can't cope.
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[bobbyblack]

Awwww, I was very hopeful to see Dave post a picture of a tool that goes over the broken fastener and then that part pilots the drill for a perfectly centered hole. I've seen him attach that picture a few times to discussions of this problem. Not that I have purchased or used one, but it looks like one I could have made use of on countless air cooled engines over the years. Something like this, but not exactly..

https://www.amazon.com/Drill-Guide-Centering-Cente...mp;sr=8-28
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[djkeev]

[jAndrew]

Thought I would post an update on this. Seems there was some communication issues between the guys at the shop and myself. Appears they were just trying to be very cautious and check with me prior to each step. There was some mention of engine removal by one of them, not even the guy doing the work. I guess it was good they did not want to surprise me with anything bad. I knew the odds of them breaking something was high so that part was fine as long as they got it done. Ended up getting them out by removing a few things and got it all back together. Only charged another hour on top of the 2 they quoted so that part was a nice surprise. Anyway, it's all good now and the difference in getting rid of that leaking, rusted exhaust is night and day. Even adjusted the timing that was set for a US spec engine instead of the DJ.
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'89 Syncro Doka

[mikemtnbike]

Somebody needs to make that quikcenter kit available again. I bought it on dave's recommendation, I guess before they stopped making it, and it works fanfreakingtastic.

Isn't this what alibaba is for?

OP: That's great news!!
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[Wildthings]

Get a piece of steel flat bar maybe an 1 - 1.5" wide by 3/16 - 3/8" thick and 16-24" long. Using a new gasket measure the center to center distance of the holes and drill one hole that fits tight over the good stud and drill the other hole the size of the bit you intend to use to drill out the broken stud/bolt. Using a screw jack or shims position your bar so that it is exactly centered over the broken stud (if need be grind the head of the stud flat first). Now carefully drill out your stud using a right angle drill motor and a sharp new bit. Having a second person to verify that you are at a right angle to the work is very helpful.

When installed the exhaust if you use a second nut on each stud and cut off any of the stud left protruding it should be easier to remove the next time around. Find exhaust nuts to use, either rust resistant hard steel ones, or the copper plated ones that I think are for Mercedes but can't remember for sure. I like flange nuts myself if there is room enough for them to be used.