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Shinnlinger
Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2017
Posts: 122
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:55 pm Post subject: soundproofing? |
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Hello,
RAAM was recommended but he hasn't returned calls and his site seems to be down so I suspect he has moved on. What would you all recommend for sound proofing. About to embark on complete restoration Bus is empty shell ATM.
Dave |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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be sure it breathes so it does not trap water behind it thru wicking.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Mberglo
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2020
Posts: 383
Location: Huntsville, AL
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panel
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2001
Posts: 1091
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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Have a look at Kilmat. I've used it and love it ! I bought mine from Amazon.
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My '65-Subaru EJ20 Turbo conversion |
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deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Atlanta, GA
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nemobuscaptain
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 3874
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| be sure it breathes so it does not trap water behind it thru wicking. |
Steve I have given that a lot of thought as I peeled back the old asphalt material all over my 1967 bug pan. Based on non-scientific casual observation, I have found that the vast majority of all factory applied bituminous material (in bugs specifically) is not perpetuating corrosion of the metal directly underneath - in many cases. The exception is floor pans. But even judging by the floor pan corrosion and proximity to sound deadener, it seems like corrosion starts at an unsealed edge and moves in.
I've looked at several newer vehicles floor pans and they're all pretty similar in how the OEM puts down sound and thermal insulation. The first layer is usually fairly thin and dense, seam sealed at the edges, and then painted over with body color. The second layer is typically adhered to the underside of the carpet, and is a thick jute or foam rubber type of material. You'll find jute type insulation glued to the back side of many interior panels as well, but not as complete coverage so I expect that is simply to absorb panel resonance.
It looks like the key -which is missed by most of us laymen applying this stuff - is to correctly edge seal the perimeter of floor sound deadener with a high quality automotive seam sealer. Followed by epoxy primer at a minimum. I've noticed that each of the above vehicles all had floor drain plugs, but there was no provision for removed water from underneath the base layer of sound deadener.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:33 am Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| be sure it breathes so it does not trap water behind it thru wicking. |
Steve I have given that a lot of thought as I peeled back the old asphalt material all over my 1967 bug pan. Based on non-scientific casual observation, I have found that the vast majority of all factory applied bituminous material (in bugs specifically) is not perpetuating corrosion of the metal directly underneath - in many cases. The exception is floor pans. But even judging by the floor pan corrosion and proximity to sound deadener, it seems like corrosion starts at an unsealed edge and moves in.
I've looked at several newer vehicles floor pans and they're all pretty similar in how the OEM puts down sound and thermal insulation. The first layer is usually fairly thin and dense, seam sealed at the edges, and then painted over with body color. The second layer is typically adhered to the underside of the carpet, and is a thick jute or foam rubber type of material. You'll find jute type insulation glued to the back side of many interior panels as well, but not as complete coverage so I expect that is simply to absorb panel resonance.
It looks like the key -which is missed by most of us laymen applying this stuff - is to correctly edge seal the perimeter of floor sound deadener with a high quality automotive seam sealer. Followed by epoxy primer at a minimum. I've noticed that each of the above vehicles all had floor drain plugs, but there was no provision for removed water from underneath the base layer of sound deadener. |
the KEY WORD was wicking. It is the capillary action that draws the water in. Even rubberized sprayed water gets in because all one needs is a microscopic break for moisture to be pulled in by capillary action. At least something that breathes dries out. In a humid climate where it is hot during the day, and cold at night, things may never dry out.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:03 am Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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I understand. I am simply making the point that millions of vehicles leave OEM assembly lines every year with many pounds and square feet of sound proofing and the vast majority of them don’t have body rust issues.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| I understand. I am simply making the point that millions of vehicles leave OEM assembly lines every year with many pounds and square feet of sound proofing and the vast majority of them don’t have body rust issues. |
one cannot equate a modern zinc dipped car to a non-dipped car of 50 years ago. ANYTHING that doesn't dry out causes corrosion. Even modern factory paints are designed to heal in hopes to slow risk of corrosion.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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More to the point, what kind of soundproofing are you recommending that is “breathable?”
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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Mberglo
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2020
Posts: 383
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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| I understand that everyone wants to be careful about rust. When they restored their prized possession, they found rust in areas, and want to make sure that never happens again. My experience shows that these restored vehicles will never again see the abusive conditions they saw when they were just old used cars. My classics are pampered now, and won't sit under a tree for a decade. So my advise would be to relax about some of the rust talk; the concern is overblown. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| More to the point, what kind of soundproofing are you recommending that is “breathable?” |
I use automotive jute. It is made of synthetic fibers, insulates, sound deadens, and dries if it gets moist. Similar to the horsehair VW used but thicker. It is also inexpensive and attaches well with 3m spray glue. I painted the inside of the front doors after prepping them well because they get wet when it rains.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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After reading about it on that Sound Deadener Showdown site, I had decided that hydrophobic melamine foam was the way to go.
But since he quit selling, I haven't been able to find another source!
(Well, you can find very expensive, thin, smallish sheets but that's it.)
A couple years ago I bought a roll of some kind of closed cell foam but I made a mistake and ordered it 2 inches thick and doesn't compress much, which means it won't easily fit without a lot of trimming. That combined with the fact that I just haven't had lots of spare time in the past couple years, means it is still just sitting in my shed.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: soundproofing? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| I use automotive jute. It is made of synthetic fibers, insulates, sound deadens, and dries if it gets moist. Similar to the horsehair VW used but thicker. It is also inexpensive and attaches well with 3m spray glue. I painted the inside of the front doors after prepping them well because they get wet when it rains. |
My old Honda Civic had jute glued to the back of its interior plastic panels, and several other cars I’ve owned had similar treatment. So I do agree that in general a jute pad is part of a good, cost effective sound control.
I’m not an engineer by any stretch so I have to draw on OEM’s engineering to figure out how and why they insulate where they do... as far as galvanized body components go, zinc is hardly the reason modern vehicles don’t rust out. Down here in the South you can spot a northern truck a mile away. Not to mention all the rusted out vanagons that were dipped. Zinc doesn’t prevent rocker and wheel well rust in those cases. I would agree that it goes a long way in preventing unpainted areas from rusting, and any car could stand to benefit from an acid and zinc dip.
I don’t understand why so many people discard modern technology because it’s not original VW. Yes jute works as part of noise reduction. But it’s not the ultimate material just because it “breathes.” Soak a pad of jute and guess what, it stays wet until it somehow dries out. That’s why OEMs don’t use jute bonded to their carpets. They use a dense rubber compound. But those are not adhered to the metal - they are removable. The base layer, adhered to the sheet metal floor pan, is not. It is seam sealed and painted over with base coat to be impervious to moisture ingress.
That is what most people are missing. At some point you have to say “moisture must not make it past this layer.” There is no way to plan for moisture under every layer of carpet, sound deadening, jute, paint, e-coat, or galvanizing: it is not cost effective or practical. At some point you have to accept that moisture will get where you don’t want it. But what timeframe are we talking about? At some point everything will rust. All of this depends upon what the subjective opinion is of “long enough.”
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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