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What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's?
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

Hi all,

I have acquired some parts over the years with a, "I'll get around to doing it one day" outlook. I've built stock engines over the years but that's it. I now fancy using the bits I have, its not many but a start, so engine builders give me some advice please.

The car is a stock 1303 Super.

The bits I have are as follows:
Twin genuine weber 40idf's, which I can jet etc accordingly.
CSP super comp exhaust
69mm forged CB performance crank
I beam CB performance VW rods
Forged lightened flywheel.

Not much I guess but a start. I really want to use these parts together on something, but if someone can recommend me, heads, I can get the intake manifolds match ported to the heads. But I understand that the heads, cam and rockers should work together and not fight, so I'm particularly looking for some strong advice on these.

As for cc, I don't mind really, I'm open to thoughts, a strong, quick 1600? 1914, is the extra cc worth it? 1776?

Its a weekend fun car, cruising at 70mph would be great, torque and low down power is where I'm at in my mid 50's, I don't want a sreamer, I do know that Very Happy

Any thoughts would be great peeps, but remember I want to use what I have please.
Cheers Phil
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c77owen
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

94mm bore, Panchito 40x35.5 CNC heads, Web 163 cam, maybe a set of 1.25 ratio rockers, 9:1 compression, and enjoy! For a little more power, go with the Web 110 and 9.5:1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

1835, W-125, CB 044 CNC Magnum heads w/dual springs, 10 Lb. flywheel, 9.0 CR, 32mm venturies in the 40's, and let her rip tater chip. Don't know what size a CSP Super Comp exhaust is but you need 1 1/2". Close 3/4 gear trans.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

offtherailz1 wrote:


As for cc, I don't mind really, I'm open to thoughts, a strong, quick 1600? 1914, is the extra cc worth it? 1776?



Hi Phil,

Yes, more displacement is definitely worth it. Go for at least 1776, or 1835 thick walls for maximum longevity. But 1914 can also last well enough if they don't get too hot.

With the right cam, compression, heads and exhaust, it will be a fun engine.

Keep us posted

Stefan
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

c77owen wrote:
94mm bore, Panchito 40x35.5 CNC heads, Web 163 cam, maybe a set of 1.25 ratio rockers, 9:1 compression, and enjoy! For a little more power, go with the Web 110 and 9.5:1

Thanks for that info, Iíll have a read on the cam difference. Why just a maybe on rockers?
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
1835, W-125, CB 044 CNC Magnum heads w/dual springs, 10 Lb. flywheel, 9.0 CR, 32mm venturies in the 40's, and let her rip tater chip. Don't know what size a CSP Super Comp exhaust is but you need 1 1/2". Close 3/4 gear trans.


Yep the CSP is top quality, itís 38mm and good up to 2000cc, 6000rpm and 40x35.5 valve heads
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

StefansBus wrote:
offtherailz1 wrote:


As for cc, I don't mind really, I'm open to thoughts, a strong, quick 1600? 1914, is the extra cc worth it? 1776?



Hi Phil,

Yes, more displacement is definitely worth it. Go for at least 1776, or 1835 thick walls for maximum longevity. But 1914 can also last well enough if they don't get too hot.

With the right cam, compression, heads and exhaust, it will be a fun engine.

Keep us posted

Stefan


Stefan, if I run stock genuine tinware with the thermostat, will they get too hot? Iím liking the idea of 1914, but am aware of the heat issue. Surely if everything is in place and timed well, it should run within tolerance? Companies like Mahle must have extensive r&d??.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

offtherailz1 wrote:
c77owen wrote:
94mm bore, Panchito 40x35.5 CNC heads, Web 163 cam, maybe a set of 1.25 ratio rockers, 9:1 compression, and enjoy! For a little more power, go with the Web 110 and 9.5:1

Thanks for that info, Iíll have a read on the cam difference. Why just a maybe on rockers?


The 1.25 rockers will move the power band up and extend it a few hundred RPM. Just depends on where you want the power to come in at.
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

c77owen wrote:
offtherailz1 wrote:
c77owen wrote:
94mm bore, Panchito 40x35.5 CNC heads, Web 163 cam, maybe a set of 1.25 ratio rockers, 9:1 compression, and enjoy! For a little more power, go with the Web 110 and 9.5:1

Thanks for that info, Iíll have a read on the cam difference. Why just a maybe on rockers?


The 1.25 rockers will move the power band up and extend it a few hundred RPM. Just depends on where you want the power to come in at.


Ah I see. What sort of rpm would those two cams start to be noticeable?
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c77owen
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

offtherailz1 wrote:
StefansBus wrote:
offtherailz1 wrote:


As for cc, I don't mind really, I'm open to thoughts, a strong, quick 1600? 1914, is the extra cc worth it? 1776?



Hi Phil,

Yes, more displacement is definitely worth it. Go for at least 1776, or 1835 thick walls for maximum longevity. But 1914 can also last well enough if they don't get too hot.

With the right cam, compression, heads and exhaust, it will be a fun engine.

Keep us posted

Stefan


Stefan, if I run stock genuine tinware with the thermostat, will they get too hot? Iím liking the idea of 1914, but am aware of the heat issue. Surely if everything is in place and timed well, it should run within tolerance? Companies like Mahle must have extensive r&d??.


The two biggest things to cause over heat in an aircooled engine: missing tins and poor tune....regardless of the size...small engines will run hot if these things aren't paid attention to. That being said, if you make sure you have the proper sealed off engine and tins and the timing and air/fuel are tuned properly, a 1915 will run just fine for a very long time
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

Ah I see. What sort of rpm would those two cams start to be noticeable?[/quote]

The Web 163 will start pulling basically right off idle and will give peak torque about 4500 RPM and peak HP up to 5800 with 1.25 rockers

The Web 110 will start coming on with the torque at about 1500-1800 RPM and HP up to about 6000 RPM.

The Web 110 will add about 5-8 HP over the 163 and about 7-10 ft/lbs of torque
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

I agreeOwen. Itís something I make sure is in place on my vwís going back to 85. Genuine tin, flaps working and seals in place plus timed correctly. Hopefully 1915 is an option as itís 300cc more.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

Iīd say max it out and build a good 1914.
This is a 1914 with very detailed 044 heads w. 40 x 35 mm valves, 9,8-1 CR, a variation of the Web 110 with 0,472/0,435" lift, 40 Alfa Dells and a CSP super comp.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The Super comp generally works best with conservative cam times, so the Web 110 is the most I would consider. Panchito heads and the Web 163 w. 125īs would be a great choice for a street car IMHO. 125 hp is easily within range along with a nice wide torque band.

Here is one from a 1914 w a 163 cam, ported GO3 heads, 9-1, 40 HPMX carbs, 1Ĺ" A1 header and with a power pulley. The shaky curve is due to the copy carbs.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by Alstrup on Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:13 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Iīd say max it out and build a good 1914.
This is a 1914 with very detailed 044 heads w. 40 x 35 mm valves, 9,8-1 CR, a variation of the Web 110 with 0,472/0,435" lift, 40 Alfa Dells and a CSP super comp.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The Super comp generally works best with conservative cam times, so the Web 110 is the most I would consider. Panchito heads and the Web 163 w. 125īs would be a great choice for a street car IMHO. 125 hp is easily within range along with a nice wide torque band.


Impressive. As always. Great work Torben.
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Iīd say max it out and build a good 1914.
This is a 1914 with very detailed 044 heads w. 40 x 35 mm valves, 9,8-1 CR, a variation of the Web 110 with 0,472/0,435" lift, 40 Alfa Dells and a CSP super comp.

The Super comp generally works best with conservative cam times, so the Web 110 is the most I would consider. Panchito heads and the Web 163 w. 125īs would be a great choice for a street car IMHO. 125 hp is easily within range along with a nice wide torque band.


Hi Torben?
Thatís a pretty impressive graph, thanks.
Is that with stock rockers?
So Iíve looked on aircooled.net site and read a bit on the 110 and 163 cam, both seem better suited to stock rockers. I like the fact that they say the power on the 163 comes in around 1300rpm, with the 110 coming in at 1500rpm. And the 163 they say is one of there popular cams, but above you mention the most you would go with is the web 110 with my exhaust. So I Just want to check, I like the lower rpm on the 163, but you think I should opt for the 110?
Sorry for the questions this is all new to me
Phil
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

c77owen wrote:
Ah I see. What sort of rpm would those two cams start to be noticeable?


The Web 163 will start pulling basically right off idle and will give peak torque about 4500 RPM and peak HP up to 5800 with 1.25 rockers

The Web 110 will start coming on with the torque at about 1500-1800 RPM and HP up to about 6000 RPM.

The Web 110 will add about 5-8 HP over the 163 and about 7-10 ft/lbs of torque[/quote]

This cam stuff is hard to get my head around for a engine novice. I want to get it right first time, so thankfully guys like yourself have invaluable experience to draw on.
Iíll probably run stock rockers if I can.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

offtherailz1 wrote:
c77owen wrote:
Ah I see. What sort of rpm would those two cams start to be noticeable?


The Web 163 will start pulling basically right off idle and will give peak torque about 4500 RPM and peak HP up to 5800 with 1.25 rockers

The Web 110 will start coming on with the torque at about 1500-1800 RPM and HP up to about 6000 RPM.

The Web 110 will add about 5-8 HP over the 163 and about 7-10 ft/lbs of torque


This cam stuff is hard to get my head around for a engine novice. I want to get it right first time, so thankfully guys like yourself have invaluable experience to draw on.
Iíll probably run stock rockers if I can.[/quote]

the first thing you need to know, is were the motor will spend the majority of its time. what RPM range.
If your the type that must run it the max RPM on every shift go ahead and cam it to run 7500 and build it accordingly.
but remember it will be a dog down low and driveability will suffer.
you need to match road speed, gearing, and power output range the RPM
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

offtherailz1 wrote:


Its a weekend fun car, cruising at 70mph would be great, torque and low down power is where I'm at in my mid 50's, I don't want a sreamer, I do know that Very Happy

Cheers Phil


Yep, youíre not wrong, the above is where I want to be Mr Works
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

offtherailz1 wrote:
Alstrup wrote:
Iīd say max it out and build a good 1914.
This is a 1914 with very detailed 044 heads w. 40 x 35 mm valves, 9,8-1 CR, a variation of the Web 110 with 0,472/0,435" lift, 40 Alfa Dells and a CSP super comp.

The Super comp generally works best with conservative cam times, so the Web 110 is the most I would consider. Panchito heads and the Web 163 w. 125īs would be a great choice for a street car IMHO. 125 hp is easily within range along with a nice wide torque band.


Hi Torben?
Thatís a pretty impressive graph, thanks.
Is that with stock rockers?
So Iíve looked on aircooled.net site and read a bit on the 110 and 163 cam, both seem better suited to stock rockers. I like the fact that they say the power on the 163 comes in around 1300rpm, with the 110 coming in at 1500rpm. And the 163 they say is one of there popular cams, but above you mention the most you would go with is the web 110 with my exhaust. So I Just want to check, I like the lower rpm on the 163, but you think I should opt for the 110?
Sorry for the questions this is all new to me
Phil

If you compare the two graphs you will notice that at say 2750 the 163 pulls roughly 5 hp more than the other engine with the custom #110 cam. That is due to two things. 1. valve duration/lift, and 2 larger and higher flow ports. The high power 1914 is about the best I can do with that cam and displacement.
The 163 cammed 1914 havew larger port volume than the Panchito heads, but the Panchitoīs flow a little more than those GO3 heads, about 5 cfm difference. That means in laymans terms that the 163 cam will pull as good or better from down low without losing power up top. The addition of VW style 1,25(or real 1,25īs) will make the engine loose a little torque below approx 25-2600 rpm but stretch the torque above 4500 and improve upper end hp.
The #163 with CB lightweight lifters and 1,25 rockers with P heads, 9,5-1, sgl Oteva 1016 springs and aluminium push rods is an awesome combo. Built right its an easy 130 hp combo with a 1914 displacement.

If you want to step it down a tad, but keep decent power with good torque you could go 1776 like this below. This engine is with very detailed stock valved heads. IIRC it is old 043 castings. 9-1, Web 218/119 cam installed on 106 ILC, Modified 36 Dellortoīs and a Vintage speed Super flow muffler. Apart from the head work its easy to build and pulls very nice power.
PS. The negative hump in the lower rpms was me goofing up. I went the wrong way with jetting. It was corrected later when I realized my error.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If you look closely you will see that this 1776 pulls aaaalmost the same power at 2750 as the #163 cammed 1914. So you see, you can move the power around a good deal by combining parts correct. Also, with this 1776. If it got one of the newer SS143 mufflers it would pull even better lower to midrange torque.
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offtherailz1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: What engine to build utilising twin weber 40idf's? Reply with quote

Ok, makes sense, for now anyway Laughing
I think Iíll go 1914, just because why not. I contacted aircooled.net today about buying the Web cam gear but since the UK left the EU, they currently no longer post to the UK, I suspect that will mean others donít also. Iím hoping that I will be able to use their cam, but I may need to use, Engle or a JPM if supply is a problem? Engle have a 110, and JPM have a 280deg cam. More reading for me!
Iím day off tomorrow so will read through your link.
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