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Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1085
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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Why don't we ever see Honda or Toyota engine conversions for Vanagons? Seems like the ability to custom fabricate these days and a seemingly great supply of engines new and used there'd be some work toward this.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| There are a few here and there. I think it just comes down to the fact that there are suitable VW/Audi engines out there, and in the case of the Subaru engine, it's a perfect physical fit. The only interest I would have in using a Honda engine for a conversion is that some are reverse rotation, so you could use a rotated fwd transmission with it. But it seems like the Honda engines that would be desirable for a conversion are standard rotation. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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A (modern and plentiful?) Honda engine that spins a Subaru transaxle in its OEM direction seems “interesting”.
But still, no granny=no deal for me. (Un-apologetic Syncro)
Some Honda engines are TOUGH. The 2005 Accord engine for sure - barely needs any oil ( Teenager-tested and approved! )
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Contact Kennedy Adapters and/or Advanced Adapters and see what they have adapters for. |
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jimf909 
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7455
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| D Clymer wrote: |
| ...in the case of the Subaru engine, it's a perfect physical fit. |
I never understand this suggestion. It seems the subie still requires a shortened oil pan to fit well and the fact that it fills up nearly every square inch of the engine bay just means that it fits. Outside of the wbx, it seems (nearly?) every conversion requires mods to the engine or van to make it fit.
I'll bet Jim Akiba at Bostig would have some insight on the Toyota/Honda/Nissan possibilities. I don't think he landed on using a Ford Zetec by chance.
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- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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Matt Steedle runs a honda V6 in his automatic vanagon
few vids of his ride
Link
Link
i think it comes down to what is 'common' and what's been around for ever. i mean, like it or not the subaru is the beetle of 90's and the platform hasn't changed all that much in almost 30 years. parts are cheap an plentiful
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| jimf909 wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
| ...in the case of the Subaru engine, it's a perfect physical fit. |
I never understand this suggestion. It seems the subie still requires a shortened oil pan to fit well and the fact that it fills up nearly every square inch of the engine bay just means that it fits. Outside of the wbx, it seems (nearly?) every conversion requires mods to the engine or van to make it fit.
I'll bet Jim Akiba at Bostig would have some insight on the Toyota/Honda/Nissan possibilities. I don't think he landed on using a Ford Zetec by chance. |
It's the crankshaft to top of the engine dimensions I'm talking about. The crankshaft centerline dictates how high above a reasonable transmission mounting height an engine will reach. The Subaru engine, since it is horizontally opposed fits nicely between the engine lid and a stock transmission positioning. An inline four with upright mounting either has to have a significantly raised engine compartment lid, or the entire engine and transmission have to be lowered to make it low enough to fit under (or almost under) the lid. |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7455
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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^^^Check. I get it when looking at it that way.
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- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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I don't understand why more folks don't just lower the drivetrain, rather than moving up into the cabin. Mine still has nearly 10" of ground clearance.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I don't understand why more folks don't just lower the drivetrain, rather than moving up into the cabin. Mine still has nearly 10" of ground clearance. |
Lowering the drivertain can decrease CV angle, allowing you to raise the van a little to get the ground clearance back. Steyr-Puch did this on the Syncro.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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Which is why my TDI is set to Syncro height, and fore/aft location. The axles are nearly perfectly inline with the outer hubs. I'm producing massive amounts of torque, so I don't want weird angles to compound CV joint binding issues.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| jimf909 wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
| ...in the case of the Subaru engine, it's a perfect physical fit. |
I never understand this suggestion. It seems the subie still requires a shortened oil pan to fit well and the fact that it fills up nearly every square inch of the engine bay just means that it fits. Outside of the wbx, it seems (nearly?) every conversion requires mods to the engine or van to make it fit.
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Au contraire! The Subaru engine is externally noticeably smaller than the WBX and leaves tons of room in the engine bay.
The shortened pan is a boon, not a necessity: the OEM pan doesn't hang down any firther than the stock Zetec pan. That's how I ID Bostig swaps out in the wild! 
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| jimf909 wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
| ...in the case of the Subaru engine, it's a perfect physical fit. |
I never understand this suggestion. It seems the subie still requires a shortened oil pan to fit well and the fact that it fills up nearly every square inch of the engine bay just means that it fits. Outside of the wbx, it seems (nearly?) every conversion requires mods to the engine or van to make it fit.
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Au contraire! The Subaru engine is externally noticeably smaller than the WBX and leaves tons of room in the engine bay.
The shortened pan is a boon, not a necessity: the OEM pan doesn't hang down any firther than the stock Zetec pan. That's how I ID Bostig swaps out in the wild! |
The pan hangs down a long way on my Multivan I only have about 4" under the tight fitting skid plate I made for mine, and that is with the van not loaded. I am wondering how feasible it would be to try and raise the entire engine to gain an additional inch under the pan? |
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3430
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| A (modern and plentiful?) Honda engine that spins a Subaru transaxle in its OEM direction seems “interesting”. |
No Honda automobile engine introduced in the last 20 years spins counterclockwise, unfortunately.
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Matt Steedle runs a honda V6 in his automatic vanagon |
Having had an Odyssey, I can tell you that is a hell of an engine. I love my standards, but if I were getting tin-top as a 2nd bus, I'd be tempted by the Odyssey / Vanagon Automatic combination
| D Clymer wrote: |
| An inline four with upright mounting either has to have a significantly raised engine compartment lid, |
My van with an in-line four has a 2” raised lid, which I do not consider significant. Biggest disadvantage if is you are using a mattress on topper of this, it makes the opening the little cabinet door slightly difficult.
Others may disagree - that's fine, but most of them have no direct experience with a raised lid.
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Au contraire! The Subaru engine is externally noticeably smaller than the WBX and leaves tons of room in the engine bay. |
Absolutely! They look like the belong there. Heck they look like a more natural fit in the Bay Window bus than the Type 1’s!
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| jimf909 wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
| ...in the case of the Subaru engine, it's a perfect physical fit. |
I never understand this suggestion. It seems the subie still requires a shortened oil pan to fit well |
Jim, doesn't Boxer for boxer have an inherent "fitting" synchronicity?
Perhaps Greg Blauchon has introduced a cognitive dissonance into the conversion engine thoughtscape by naming his company Boxeer then shifting over to I-4s.
Today's intellectual, expected to place branding above logic can get all out of whack trying to make sense of reality.
It seems reasonable that the EJ25's boxer oilpan must then be shortened similarly. The WBX has the cam&lifters below the crankshaft, whereas the Subaru has open space. Note that VW's short oilpan, at engine size 2.1L, required oil-cooling __in addition__ to their finned aluminum pan. Which suggests the 2.5L Subaru, with a short pan where the oil can never get far from it's pistons,,, might require additional oil cooling too. Short EJ25 oil life nods toward this.
When is someone gonna start monitoring EJ25 (and GW 2.5,2.7) oil pan temperatures?
Do I have to start this?
The V6, being so much smoother than a 4-cyl.... seems like it might increase the power-handling capacity of the Vanagon transaxle. I bet a 150 hp V6 would be a good conversion engine.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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A while back I had a perfect running Audi AAH 2.8 174hp V6 and very seriously considered installing it instead of my TDI. But the fuel mileage reports from other offbrand six cyl Vanagons convinced me otherwise.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| fuel mileage reports from other offbrand six cyl Vanagons convinced me otherwise. |
Fuel mileage costs for a V6 might total up to less than TDi transaxle mileage costs.
Can a Dual Mass Flywheel be used if you spacered the bellhousing?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
The pan hangs down a long way on my Multivan I only have about 4" under the tight fitting skid plate I made for mine, and that is with the van not loaded. I am wondering how feasible it would be to try and raise the entire engine to gain an additional inch under the pan? |
Wouldn't it be easier to install a shortened pan from Outfront or Burley?
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
The pan hangs down a long way on my Multivan I only have about 4" under the tight fitting skid plate I made for mine, and that is with the van not loaded. I am wondering how feasible it would be to try and raise the entire engine to gain an additional inch under the pan? |
Wouldn't it be easier to install a shortened pan from Outfront or Burley? |
I had a shortened oil pan for many years and found the engine oil would start to foam and and suddenly begin to exit the crankcase at about 3000 miles. The first Subaru engine died when my daughter was driving it in very cold weather (highs of around 0°F for weeks on end) and I think the crankcase vents clogged with ice as the engine blew all the oil out in less than a mile driving from a cold start one day. I do not want to go down that route again and thus want a full capacity pan. I also don't like the idea of an aluminium oil pan and had I had one could well have lost the oil just last week when my wife backed my van off the road and pounded the bottom of the engine into some goodly rocks.
I don't think raising the engine by an inch would be a big deal but haven't really looked things over well, but I think just building a mustache bar with less droop and then adjusting the exhaust to fit lower in its brackets might be all that is needed. |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Why Are There No Honda or Toyota Engine Conversions? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
The pan hangs down a long way on my Multivan I only have about 4" under the tight fitting skid plate I made for mine, and that is with the van not loaded. I am wondering how feasible it would be to try and raise the entire engine to gain an additional inch under the pan? |
Wouldn't it be easier to install a shortened pan from Outfront or Burley? |
I had a shortened oil pan for many years and found the engine oil would start to foam and and suddenly begin to exit the crankcase at about 3000 miles. The first Subaru engine died when my daughter was driving it in very cold weather (highs of around 0°F for weeks on end) and I think the crankcase vents clogged with ice as the engine blew all the oil out in less than a mile driving from a cold start one day. I do not want to go down that route again and thus want a full capacity pan. I also don't like the idea of an aluminium oil pan and had I had one could well have lost the oil just last week when my wife backed my van off the road and pounded the bottom of the engine into some goodly rocks.
I don't think raising the engine by an inch would be a big deal but haven't really looked things over well, but I think just building a mustache bar with less droop and then adjusting the exhaust to fit lower in its brackets might be all that is needed. |
I can see how that would make you gun shy!! The Outfront pan, unlike some others, retains the OEM baffling that prevents your scenario. I use 6000 RPM frequently and have had no issues with the oiling.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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