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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16851
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| joshluther wrote: |
But at 2500 miles? Seems a bit premature considering others have gone 50k miles and more with a diesel strapped to them. |
they just pop. i think Daves took a dirt nap twice with under 20k miles
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=640
don't have time to look thru the thread but i think the first one went at 10k miles, can't remember.
i know 2 trans builders that won't touch them if they know they are going into a TDI
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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I believe I saw this failed transaxle on the bench yesterday. Diesel vibrations had rattled the brand new G/R synchronizer assembly to death. A broken pin then wedged in between G gears, breaking the low gear housing. The trans oil drained out, and the driven transaxle then fried itself in specific areas. I'll post photos later today.
I'm seeing a pattern suggesting that without a dual mass flywheel, the chance of vibration failure in a TDi is quite high.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| gears wrote: |
I believe I saw this failed transaxle on the bench yesterday. Diesel vibrations had rattled the brand new G/R synchronizer assembly to death. A broken pin then wedged in between G gears, breaking the low gear housing. The trans oil drained out, and the driven transaxle then fried itself in specific areas. I'll post photos later today.
I'm seeing a pattern suggesting that without a dual mass flywheel, the chance of vibration failure in a TDi is quite high. |
It not likely that it’s mine unless you’re out of town. Mine was delivered to the shop yesterday morning and they are a long way from Bend. Mine only had a slight leak on the passenger side output but that started before the Big Bang.
I have a DMF waiting to be installed when I figure out which transaxle is going back in. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:25 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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Ah .. This one belongs to another Sambanista then. We really need to know which specific parts failed (and of course the contributing factors) ..
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| joshluther wrote: |
But at 2500 miles? Seems a bit premature considering others have gone 50k miles and more with a diesel strapped to them. |
they just pop. i think Daves took a dirt nap twice with under 20k miles
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=640
don't have time to look thru the thread but i think the first one went at 10k miles, can't remember.
i know 2 trans builders that won't touch them if they know they are going into a TDI |
Skills I see you're local to me. Who are the builders that won't touch the tdi transaxles? |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:55 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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One of the things the rebuilder noticed opening up the the transmission the second time was that the mainshaft and bearing had beaten its way into the front housing. He showed me photos where he had rebuilt the surface (tig welded).
What would be the outcome if this happened again? Obviously the gear mesh wouldn't be correct but could this have caused the Big Bang out of fourth gear? |
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jimmyhoffa
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 1055
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:43 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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Absolutely. Take a look at the picture I posted of the 091 gearstack. Imagine holding the slider ring for 3/4th fixed in space like you were the shift fork, and then sliding the whole mainshaft gear stack towards the front. Boom! Rips it clean out of 4th. At minimum I expect you to need:
1) new front cover (the thing that was TIGged)
2) 3/4 slider ring (probably got rounded off and will threaten to explode out of gear now, even if all else is sorted)
3) New 4th gear (dogs are probably not looking good, same reasons as above)
4) Sleeved or new gear carrier
Things to inspect for sure: Shift fork set, 3/4 slider hub, #4 AND #3 Synchro
Sidenote: Did the builder know it was going to see diesel service? If so, and they just rebuilt the mainshaft bearing thrust surface up again without re-sleeving or replacing the gear carrier to restore the press fit of that bearing, AND doing some sort of modification to mitigate the future banging-out of the front cover, they are not quite ready for the big leagues. I'm not by any stretch an expert, but that's Box Box Longevity 101, even for gasser service.
You have the attention of several people in this thread who I respect tremendously, and they might have even more to offer here. Gears has a badass straight cut 4th and knows a few things about gear carriers  but I won't speak for him, it may or may not apply to the diesel situation.
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:07 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| jimmyhoffa wrote: |
Sidenote: Did the builder know it was going to see diesel service? If so, and they just rebuilt the mainshaft bearing thrust surface up again without re-sleeving or replacing the gear carrier to restore the press fit of that bearing, AND doing some sort of modification to mitigate the future banging-out of the front cover, they are not quite ready for the big leagues. I'm not by any stretch an expert, but that's Box Box Longevity 101, even for gasser service.
You have the attention of several people in this thread who I respect tremendously, and they might have even more to offer here. Gears has a badass straight cut 4th and knows a few things about gear carriers but I won't speak for him, it may or may not apply to the diesel situation. |
Yes he absolutely knew it was diesel powered, he went for a ride with me before I pulled it out for the 2nd rebuild. When he showed me the photos he commented that it looked like something was hammering on it. He then also commented that "it's just a VW diesel".
He received the transmission on Tuesday and I haven't heard anything yet. I'm definitely exploring my other options at this point. This has been a VERY expensive lesson for me, just the transportation home from Tennessee was $2k, not to mention the 3 weeks of adventure that I missed out on. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| Quote: |
| .. he commented that it looked like something was hammering on it. He then also commented that "it's just a VW diesel". |
Your builder is learning about TDi the hard way. This thread really should be moved to the Vanagon forum, where numerous people have already been through this learning experience.
Yes, a new carrier housing is important, as well as a steel retainer/thrust plate for the mainshaft ball bearing (and a straight-cut 4th gear).
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| gears wrote: |
| Quote: |
| .. he commented that it looked like something was hammering on it. He then also commented that "it's just a VW diesel". |
Your builder is learning about TDi the hard way. This thread really should be moved to the Vanagon forum, where numerous people have already been through this learning experience.
Yes, a new carrier housing is important, as well as a steel retainer/thrust plate for the mainshaft ball bearing (and a straight-cut 4th gear).
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Unfortunately the customer (me) is learning the hard way $$
I did cross post in the Vanagon forum but it's gotten a lot more traffic here.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=751139
I'm anxiously awaiting the current prognosis. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16851
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| joshluther wrote: |
Skills I see you're local to me. Who are the builders that won't touch the tdi transaxles? |
2 on the east coast and another 3 on the west coast. this was told to me by the guy i get all of my transmissions done by. i am not going to name the names...don't have time to start that drama.
i use Matt Steedle. he got put thru the ringer with one that ate itself at about 30k and re-rebuilt it only for the owner to do a bunch of stupid shit upon install so then he re-re-built it and took a video for the guy. in the end, the guy had changed a bunch of stuff, never told Matt and Matt has ben telling every TDI to go away.
even with all the mods they just don't last long.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| joshluther wrote: |
Skills I see you're local to me. Who are the builders that won't touch the tdi transaxles? |
2 on the east coast and another 3 on the west coast. this was told to me by the guy i get all of my transmissions done by. i am not going to name the names...don't have time to start that drama.
i use Matt Steedle. he got put thru the ringer with one that ate itself at about 30k and re-rebuilt it only for the owner to do a bunch of stupid shit upon install so then he re-re-built it and took a video for the guy. in the end, the guy had changed a bunch of stuff, never told Matt and Matt has ben telling every TDI to go away.
even with all the mods they just don't last long. |
I spoke with Matt in December and his timeline and mine just didn't work, I was leaving in January.
I WISH mine had lasted 30k miles, it didn't even make it two weeks. |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:44 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| even with all the mods they just don't last long. |
Skills, that's just plain wrong when stated as a generality like that. There are many people with TDI engines mated to Vanagon transaxles that have been driving them without issue for many years and many miles, myself included. People say the same thing about the 01M automatic transaxle that came stock with the Mk4s. Some people can ruin them in a couple/few months. It is also quite common for the original 01M trans in the MK4 to go 250,000+ miles without issue.
Absolutely quite a few Vanagon transaxles mated to TDI engines give up the ghost prematurely but that is a function of poor driving style, parts that should not be used in the conversion, and/or incorrectly built transaxles.
If I'm not mistaken, the two most powerful TDI engine conversion kits currently offered (FAS and Boxeer) are not even offered with the dual-mass flywheel!
All of that said, the OP's transaxle dying at 2,500 miles mated to an AHU was not caused by the AHU, period! Someone can flog an AHU in the stupidest way and still a fresh transaxle build will not fail in 2,500 miles unless something was wrong with it at the start of those miles. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7536
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
Absolutely quite a few Vanagon transaxles mated to TDI engines give up the ghost prematurely but that is a function of poor driving style, parts that should not be used in the conversion, and/or incorrectly built transaxles.
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Define "incorrectly built transaxle".
One that didn't use straight-cut gears, a billet housing, gun-drilled shafts, or pressure-fed bearings?
One that didn't get a steel sleeve in the bore(s)?
Anyone with a lot of experience working on mechanical junk,
Especially old, tired, worn-out mechanical junk will learn of the huge variation in these things.
One transaxle case casting might be made the day after Octoberfest,
One might have never had an oil change -ever-.
When some poor transaxle builder dares tread within one of these for money, what are they going to find?
How many potential 'first time' issues lurk within after nearly 50 years?
Back in the 80s and 90s you might have found one type of failure, like syncros or bearings.
In the 2000s you'll be getting egged out bearing bores in housings or wasted ring n' pinions.
Now what??
It's possible for a customer to bring in a "core" with all of the parts wasted.
With so many parts being NLA, what does a guy do?
How many hours are going to be spent by our builder sourcing parts and figuring out what's wrong?
Time is money.
Diesel motors run by detonation, essentially.
They make big power at low RPM.
Think jackhammer..
While it might not kill all transaxles all the time,
How do you think this will effect your luck running a transaxle that might be at (past) the end of it's life?
These things are becoming a labor of love;
The day is coming very soon where you won't be able to find anyone willing to reach for their ten-foot-pole when someone brings in a transaxle.
Especially someone with a big motor intent on loading it to the gills and running uphill in modern freeway traffic.
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What’s That Noise?!? |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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Clatter, there's no need to try to school me on diesel, turbo-diesel, or TDI Vanagons. I have been working on VW diesels for the last 30 years. I've done multiple TD and TDI Vanagon engine conversions. I have had a TDI Vanagon as a primary driver for the last decade. I have had ZERO TDI Vanagon transaxles issues.
To answer your question, an 'incorrectly built transaxle' is exactly what it sounds like. One where things were not brought to spec. Even a bone stock properly rebuilt Vanagon transaxle will *not* explode from an AHU in 2,500 miles regardless of how stupidly an individual operates it and not even with a single-mass flywheel. There was something wrong with the OP's build, plain and simple!
| Clatter wrote: |
It's possible for a customer to bring in a "core" with all of the parts wasted.
With so many parts being NLA, what does a guy do? |
If the core is not rebuildable, then the builder should tell the customer and turn down the job unless another core is sourced. Any extra cost should be factored into any sensible business model. |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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There's a whole lot of regurgitated ignorance in this thread.
"I heard from a guy who knows a guy and thought he saw a post on the innertubes about diesel demons spawning with Satan just to perform the dance of death in a swamp somewhere."
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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joshluther
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast CT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
There's a whole lot of regurgitated ignorance in this thread.
"I heard from a guy who knows a guy and thought he saw a post on the innertubes about diesel demons spawning with Satan just to perform the dance of death in a swamp somewhere." |
Unfortunately it seems like the Vanagon community is filled with that.
I did a ton of research before I did my tdi swap in December, I knew the transmission would be the weak link, that's why I bought a unit that had been done by a reputable builder. Unfortunately it seems like he doesn't have much diesel experience.
I know there are plenty of people that have 50k+ miles on theirs without issues.
At this point I'm curious what could have caused my issues. "it's a diesel" didn't cause the failure in 2500 miles
Zeitgeist and Waldo what are your setups? |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12114
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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I'm currently running a DK code aircooled trans of unknown provenance. It is quiet and offers no current concerns. Mind you, I'm pushing major torque and I like to use it.
Having said that, I'm also currently building an 010 auto with a 4.08 R&P to swap in for the long term. I've lost interest in rowing gears, and the autos are a tough box.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16851
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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| joshluther wrote: |
I spoke with Matt in December and his timeline and mine just didn't work, I was leaving in January.
I WISH mine had lasted 30k miles, it didn't even make it two weeks. |
you needed a transmission for a 30+ year old car in a month? haha...
even when i was getting stuff from the west coast it was always a 4-6 week wait, which really turned into 8 weeks.
Waldo....
sometimes a blind squirrel gets a nut. it's 100% garbage someone should "learn" how to drive a diesel with a stick.... it should be second nature to anyone who drives a manual.
i got out of vw diesels 20 years ago now. the juice wasn't worth the squeeze anymore. i did love my old rabbits and jetta n/a and t/d.
to your point some transmissions just go and go. i have a FF 020 with 90mm hubs behind a 1.8t with 20+ psi of boost shoveled down it's throat. people told me it wouldn't last a week. 2 years later and it's still burning tires in 3rd gear.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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mikedjames
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 2734
Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:50 am Post subject: Re: 091/1 094 transaxle failure |
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One common factor for the failures is the foot on the gas pedal...
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Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
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