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Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service.
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Sawyer2
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:02 pm    Post subject: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

I have 5000 miles on my rebuilt type IV engine and started to leak a small drop of oil after each drive. I contacted the builder and brought it in to him for inspection and repair. After so long, they got to it and said it was a galley plug. He said they sealed it with JB weld and then said it was ready.

When I picked it up, I immediately noticed something wasnít right, it sounded like the exhaust was popping or there was a knock, and the clutch was out of adjustment. I didnít think much of it because it had been a while since I had drove it so I proceeded to drive home. When I got home, I realized that something really wasnít right with the sound, so I emailed builder and let him know of my concern and he was understanding. He said his apprentice had been doing the work since he had a recent injury or two. He said to bring it in after 500 miles and he will make everything right.

My concern - the bus sounds bad but not a huge knock. Is there any chance of doing harm driving it? And, I think Iím seeing white smoke in the video I took below. Is that a concern? Any advise is appreciated.

https://youtu.be/26pw2--wer0
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Not the best sound on my phone, but it sounds like an exhaust leak on a cylinder. This is common on these engines if the pipes that mate with the cylinder head are not flat, or torqued down evenly. Worse if the copper gaskets have not been softened by annealing them. Take a piece of hose and hold one end a few inches from your ear, then move the other end from one pipe to the next where they mate to the cylinder head to isolate what cylinder is leaking.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

I'd suggest losing the Monza exhaust in favor of something stock-ish. Really can't tell what's exhaust leaks vs engine noise. I feel your pain.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

What Vanapplebomb and jberger said.

Also.....was it noisey BEFORE you pulled it in for this latest fix?

A couple of items. Im not beating on your builder.....but I kind of am depending on the answer.

Were your galley plugs tapped and threaded? If so.....a dab of JB weld and a further tightening of the leaky one is fine. If not......fixing a leaking.....STOCK TYPE..... oil galley plug with JB weld is a recipe for disaster.

Also.....a common problem when pulling a type 4 engine in or out.....is excessive man-handling of the exhaust manifolds/heat exchangers. It can cause the type of exhaust leak that Vanapplebomb is speaking of.

It also potentially points to issues with the exhaust studs.

So.....what all was done to the heads during this rebuild?

And in general....Monza mufflers.....most that are made....are crappy in construction. It could easily be the muffler leaking somewhere on the muffler or it can,easily be leaking at the flanges where it connects to the heat exchangers. Its also a hot running exhaust for type 4. Ray
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Sawyer2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

@vanapplebomb

I'm heading out to inspect it further so I try to track it down using the hose.

@jberger

The only other option I'm finding is a single Quiet Pack. Do you know of any other options? I would consider going to aftermarket head pipes instead of the stock heater boxes.

@raygreenwood

The bus was not noisy at all when I droped it off.

The galley plugs we not taped and threaded. I believe he just sealed the stock oil galley plug with JB weld.

I am leaning towards it having an exhaust leak. Not sure how the mechanic did his work or his helper but I will take a few pictures of the current condition.

He used new AMC heads for the rebuild. He builds a lot of engines and has good luck with them from my understanding.

I'm not a fan of my current muffler. My mechanic was so that is why it is on there. No big deal though, I planning on replacing it.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Well, holding the hose to the manifold attached to cycler #3 and sounds a bit rough compared to the other 3. When I say rough, holding the hose to the #1, #2, and #4 cylinder it just sounds like an amplified running engine. When I hold it to #3 it sounds a lot rougher almost a different sound.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Just to clarify, the #3 cylinder barrel or #3 Cylinder head exhaust port?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Exhaust head port
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

I go along with Ray, In 1992 I .built my first T-4 Upright Conversion and the only muffler I could find was the Monza I learned to get the copper gaskets in place was use a few drops of crazy glue to set them in the head because the mufflers were not fitting correctly. After pulling a few mufflers noticed the way the gasket sitting and it seemed to be poor fitting of the muffler.

That problem went away after Installed the stainless steel muffler I still used today in that same engine.


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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Sawyer2 wrote:
Exhaust head port



Ok, does it sound like a regularly spaced ďpft pft pft?Ē Is so, I suspect that the exhaust connection to your head is your problem.

The hose trick works pretty well for isolating where noises are coming from. You can always fish around over the rest of the engine and see if you pick up something else odd. If the general area above #3 sounds normal, that tells us that it likely isnít anything internal, and it likely is just a leaky exhaust connection to the head.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

No, it was an unusual sound. More like something was spinning...

I talked to the builder this morning and he said they had the heads off to seal galley plugs. He thought there could be a leak at the head instead of at the cylinder exhaust port. I'm sort of torn here. I hate driving it with the sound but he asked to put a few hundred miles on it and bring it back in. He will make everything right. I asked if there was a concern about doing harm and he said no. I'm taking his word and will put 'er back on the road.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

#3/#4 cylinders
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#4 cylinder Exhaust port
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#4 cylinder Exhaust port
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#3 cylinder Exhaust port
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#3 cylinder Exhaust port
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Impossibel to tell just from looking if a copper sealing ring is leaking. A quicky way to check is to let the engine cool down stone cold. Pull off any cover plates underneath in your way. Then with a spray bottle....spritz all four head to flange joints with soapy water.

Really soak them. Then start the engine and quickly get underneath. Better yet...elevate the rear, block the wheel, make sure its in neutral with parking brake....and get underneath while aomeone else starts it.

Look for foam. That will tell you if you have a leak.

Oh....also....what oil pump is in this engine? I ask because if its an aftermarket pump and if you have a bolt on aftermarket cam......this same noise ....or similar....can come from oil pump contact to bolt heads on cam. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Fish around at the cylinder to head connection with the hose. If it is a leak, you want it fixed as soon as possible. A leak lets super hot combustion gasses blow through the gap, and it can cut through aluminum like a cutting torch, rendering the heads junk, or needing to be welded and machined.

Maybe try taking a video for audio just below the #3 port and cylinder connections. Might stand out better than the video as a whole. my money is still on a leak.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
Fish around at the cylinder to head connection with the hose. If it is a leak, you want it fixed as soon as possible. A leak lets super hot combustion gasses blow through the gap, and it can cut through aluminum like a cutting torch, rendering the heads junk, or needing to be welded and machined.

Maybe try taking a video for audio just below the #3 port and cylinder connections. Might stand out better than the video as a whole. my money is still on a leak.



Good point!...and worth asking with a type 4....make sure your builder did NOT use the factory had gaskets. Those are a recipe for "eventually" causing exactly what Vanapplebomb just described. Its why the factory finally put out a technical service bulletin directing them to be deleted.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Vanapplebomb wrote:
Fish around at the cylinder to head connection with the hose. If it is a leak, you want it fixed as soon as possible. A leak lets super hot combustion gasses blow through the gap, and it can cut through aluminum like a cutting torch, rendering the heads junk, or needing to be welded and machined.

Maybe try taking a video for audio just below the #3 port and cylinder connections. Might stand out better than the video as a whole. my money is still on a leak.



Good point!...and worth asking with a type 4....make sure your builder did NOT use the factory had gaskets. Those are a recipe for "eventually" causing exactly what Vanapplebomb just described. Its why the factory finally put out a technical service bulletin directing them to be deleted.

Ray



I think we reused the original oil pump and bought a new stock cam and gear. I think the cam and gear were in separate pieces when new.

I'm pretty sure when I talked to the builder he said he used the head gasket... I'm not sure why as he is an experienced builder (who built the engine for my last bus which I considered to be built proof) maybe that is how he does it and it has worked... Or maybe his apprentice did it that way... who knows.

I will inspect a bit more tonight. I'm probably going to order the single QP muffler tonight as well to quiet down the bus unless there are better options out there?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Sawyer2 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Vanapplebomb wrote:
Fish around at the cylinder to head connection with the hose. If it is a leak, you want it fixed as soon as possible. A leak lets super hot combustion gasses blow through the gap, and it can cut through aluminum like a cutting torch, rendering the heads junk, or needing to be welded and machined.

Maybe try taking a video for audio just below the #3 port and cylinder connections. Might stand out better than the video as a whole. my money is still on a leak.



Good point!...and worth asking with a type 4....make sure your builder did NOT use the factory had gaskets. Those are a recipe for "eventually" causing exactly what Vanapplebomb just described. Its why the factory finally put out a technical service bulletin directing them to be deleted.

Ray



I think we reused the original oil pump and bought a new stock cam and gear. I think the cam and gear were in separate pieces when new.

I'm pretty sure when I talked to the builder he said he used the head gasket... I'm not sure why as he is an experienced builder (who built the engine for my last bus which I considered to be built proof) maybe that is how he does it and it has worked... Or maybe his apprentice did it that way... who knows.

I will inspect a bit more tonight. I'm probably going to order the single QP muffler tonight as well to quiet down the bus unless there are better options out there?


All factory cams were ONE PIECE riveted together. You really cannot buy a new FACTORY cam unless you stumble across an NOS cam.....and I would bet the cost we be high enougj to get you two complete sets of afterkarket cam and l8fters.

So if the new cam you used came with gear seperate from the cam....then it has bolts.....so the gap between bolts and stock type 4 oil pump bolts becomes an issue that must be. Checked.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:


So if the new cam you used came with gear seperate from the cam....then it has bolts.....so the gap between bolts and stock type 4 oil pump bolts becomes an issue that must be. Checked.

Ray


Just for my knowledge, how does it become a problem over time? Also, I'm thinking that if they sealed one of the galley plugs near the cam plug/gear area, it might be hitting some of the jb weld or sealant they used on the inside? Kind of a stretch of the imagination and also difficult to confirm unless the case is split. I might as well get started on the 2.0 build that I had planned for this summer. This current engine is starting to give me a headache.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

Another trick to hear to pinpoint the noise is, use a rubber hose, even a garden hose will do and use it like a Doctors Statoscopes. Start the car and just put one end to your ear and the other to each exhaust port.

Yes as everybody said the head gaskets can be a big problem.

As for the head gaskets, you may also be able to fish around with the hose .

I remembered when my heads were leaking I could hear the difference as a passed a concrete divider wall on a highway. As I passed it my exhaust noise got loud, till I passed the wall.

The sound was bouncing off the wail. .
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilt stock 1.8L type IV engine noise after service. Reply with quote

After he used that technique, he was able to narrow the noise location down to something on the #3 side. Either the exhaust port or a bad cylinder to head seal.

The question is if there is anything else funky with the engine, like cam bolts backing out into the oil pump...or the pump shaft backing out and hitting the cam bolts.

To the original poster... just for the heck of it, take the exhaust off the 3/4 side and see what the flanges that mate with the head look like. if there is black spot across the sealing surface, thatís your leak. Try reinstalling with a very thin coat of high temp copper rtv... a thin coat, not a bead. If the noise goes away, that was your issue.
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