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Rust, here I come!
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

I've decided to tackle as much of the rust I can myself, and see what's left for outsourcing. This stems in part from the difficulty of finding bodywork people around my area.

I've taken the kitchen cabinet and water tank cabinet out to see what's hiding beneath. I've vacuumed the flakes and handbrushed the big pieces to get an idea.

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Close-up on the bottom of the panel, from left to right:

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Zoom on those holes, close to B-pillar (penny I found under the kitchen cabinet, for scale)

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My next step is to wirewheel the rust out, and have somebody come in and do some welding. What do you guys think? Will small patches do, or do I need to remove a big strip all along the seam like I often see?

Also, thanks to VanMan2009 [url](https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=751476[/url]) for motivating me to do this!
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

I guess it's only fitting that I'm the first one to reply Wink

Do you have access to a media blaster? That rust in the top seam looks pretty aggressive but you won't really know what you're working with unless you can blast away the rust to 'good' metal. It's going to be pitted, and probably pretty thin. I have a couple of small holes in that same seam, but the back of the seam isn't visible from outside the van so whatever fix you come up with doesn't need to be pretty. I'm not in quite as bad shape as you, but I've been thinking about cutting out that section and panel bonding (gluing) in new metal using 3M 8115 panel bond. Bonding can be as strong as welding and I think in this section would be more than strong enough.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

VanMan2009 wrote:
I guess it's only fitting that I'm the first one to reply Wink

Do you have access to a media blaster? That rust in the top seam looks pretty aggressive but you won't really know what you're working with unless you can blast away the rust to 'good' metal. It's going to be pitted, and probably pretty thin. I have a couple of small holes in that same seam, but the back of the seam isn't visible from outside the van so whatever fix you come up with doesn't need to be pretty. I'm not in quite as bad shape as you, but I've been thinking about cutting out that section and panel bonding (gluing) in new metal using 3M 8115 panel bond. Bonding can be as strong as welding and I think in this section would be more than strong enough.


I may get blasted for saying this but if the repair is not going to be visible from the outside and is rather small in nature I like to fiberglass and epoxy the area closed. Fully remove all the rust first of course. The disadvantage of the fiberglass repair is that you are not doing anything to the underside of that piece of metal. The advantage is that you do not need to weld anything. YMMV.
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
I may get blasted for saying this
Laughing


dobryan wrote:
but if the repair is not going to be visible from the outside and is rather small in nature I like to fiberglass and epoxy the area closed. Fully remove all the rust first of course. The disadvantage of the fiberglass repair is that you are not doing anything to the underside of that piece of metal. The advantage is that you do not need to weld anything. YMMV.


Dude I hear ya. this is my life right now.. I've gone down just about every rabbit hole of potential ways to deal with the rust... I was even planning on 'leading' or tinning in new metal to the pinholes and thin spots, but from what I've learned the metal needs to be absolutely clean for the repair to not fail down the road.

It keeps coming back to (as you say) "you are not doing anything to the underside of that piece of metal." That particular seam is boxed in as part of the frame (I think) - so good news you don't see it, but bad news that back side is impossible to really get to without cutting it all out. For places like that I ordered Eastwood's 'Internal Frame Coating' and plan to just fog the inside of the frame areas I can't get to like that.

I think if you are cutting out that whole section, I'd glue / bond in new sheet metal over fiberglass, but if the repair area is small that's an option I've considered too.

Eastwood frame coating:https://www.eastwood.com/internal-frame-coating-aerosol-black-14oz.html
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

I don't have access to a sandblaster unfortunately. Would wirewheel suffice?

Also, I like the ideas around not welding. The main goal here is to stop the spread, not fix everything. So epoxy/fibregalss is not off the table. I've also read about epoxy putty, why not...

Otherwise, if I were to go the new panel route, would it look like this? (Before and After). I like the idea of 3M panel bond adhesive too.


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Or VanMan, did you suggest cutting something bigger?
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alaskadan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Pfssst! You call that rust! You oughta just put it all back together and drive it Very Happy . I weld so thats how I would patch it. But in your case panel adhesive and a patch will last a long time. Long time. The inside of the frame is somewhere you should just cavity wax and be done.
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4Gears4Tires
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

I would do some small exploratory cutting/grinding. One thing I learned from my rust repair was that I cut way too much off and created a lot more problems for myself. Keep the repairs as small as possible.
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Here's a thought:

Use a small hole saw (say, 1" diameter or possibly smaller), to drill two or three access holes in the horizontal metal that is depicted with the penny in your pics. You can buy plastic plugs at Lordco or NAPA and choose a hole saw size that will work with those plugs. Now you will have good access to the closed channel where the rust-prone rocker panel is and you can get a good coating of Fluid-film or Waxoyl in that area after you do the wire-brushing (or other) rust removal. This will obviously be AFTER you treat the area, including the bare metal exposed by drilling holes, with a quality paint and/or rust converter.

Then you can re-apply Fluid-Film or Waxoyl annually to keep things in check.

On re-assembly, be sure to use 3M glazing compound on the utility boxes since the foam seals alone don't seal well against water intrusion.

I should say, the amount of rust depicted in your van is very limited, so you are very lucky!
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Thanks

I like the idea of exploration, I'll see. This area is also accessible via the two drina plugs on the outside? I imagine that's where you'd wax the cavity from. I don't see myself removing the whole kitchen once a year Shocked Very Happy

alaskadan wrote:
Pfssst! You call that rust! You oughta just put it all back together and drive it Very Happy . I weld so thats how I would patch it. But in your case panel adhesive and a patch will last a long time. Long time. The inside of the frame is somewhere you should just cavity wax and be done.


Laughing

In that regards, does my sketch up there look OK regarding the shape of the panel?!
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Found this thread, which covers a case quite similar to mine:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Some put a panel like the one I sketched above, some have filled the holes with epoxy, and others have just eft the opening... open. Well now at least I have options!
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ghianowbug
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

the wire wheel takes the loose rust off you can be a bit more agressive with a flap disc on angle grinder also the rust on the panel expose the rust and then treat it. you mentioned eastwood . I like their products use the internal frame for areas you cant see and the fast etch for the area that you see this will convert the rust and stop it dead coat it then you can treat the underside area with the amber wax treatment from eastwood as well . As to the holes if you can weld then do so but if you treat the rust with the fast etch and coat it then i do not see t a problem with fiberglass. as mentioned if you have limited resources or cant weld . eastwood have som good videos detailing their products and how to use them. I used them on the bug that i restored and 5 years later no issues with rust reoccurring where i treated. being you are on Vancouver island want to protect the metal from the humidity.
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Thanks. I'll look into these products.

I'll try the flap disc as well, although the clearance is limited between the outside wall and the horizontal channel. Worth a shot!
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VanMan2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

VicVan wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is a pretty crude drawing but the shape is something like this. There's a couple of seams where I highlighted, as you obviously can see in your own van.

The seam furthest outboard has that void underneath, where the frame rail is, so again you can't see the backside of that part of the seam from outside the van. I just took a couple of pics this morning to help visualize:
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This is looking straight up from underneath:
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Before you cut anything, maybe you can use the already existing holes underneath to shoot your rust converter up in there? That's my plan. I have a can of Eastwood internal frame coating to use there... it has a long applicator hose that sprays in a 360 pattern. You just deploy the hose into your frame as far as it will go, and then spray while slowly withdrawing the hose. Supposedly this will give good coverage on those hard to reach spots, without cutting.

Quote:
I don't have access to a sandblaster unfortunately. Would wirewheel suffice?

Good for knocking off the loose stuff, but it won't get rid of the rust that's 'attached' for lack of a better word.

How hard would it be to piece together some kind of blasting setup? Do you have a compressor? They make cheap / small spot blasting guns for $15 if you have a decent compressor. Otherwise, that's an expense. I really can't imagine doing this without it, but I do get that sometimes you have to work with what you have...
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Vanman, thanks for the helpful pictures.

Eastwood in the cavity it is.

As for the sandblaster, my compressor does not match the CFM requirements of the sandblasting guns I found... I could Mickeymouse something, but not sure the result will be worth my time. I'll wirewheel, flapwheel, and see what's left. I'll advise then. I'll probably use Ospho to convert the remainder of the rust.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

the internal frame paint from eastwood has zinc phosphate and an encapsulator found it really good when treating the pillars of the bug. eastwood has a canada distribution system and I had no issues when ordering to canada. they also sell the panel bond and the products that they sell are good quatilty . funny thing is some of their proiducts are made for them in canada .

https://www.princessauto.com/en/18-oz-hopper-gravi...0008140709

There is a sandblaster gun that you can use that is 40 bucks at princess auto and you have one in victoria I have used gun and the only problem is that the hopper is small and constantly needs refilling. I used the crushed green glass media and you can buy it for 10 bucks or so for a bag. does not need a large compressor and needs about 3-4 cfm at 90 lbs . they have 2-3 others but have not used them and the siphon kit is good and i used that extensively my 30 gallon compressor could not keep up but for small areas not a problem just let it recover . and be patient use a good mask and have good ventilation

eastwood has a media blaster kit that you use a pressure washer not air compressor but you need 3.5 gm pressure washer so one that has a gas motor and is not on the small side. cost is about 100 dollars but benefit is no dust

regarding the flap disc s they go on sale at canadian tire with an assortment of grits usually 10 flap discs for 29.99 or so
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

I was actually looking at that gun on princessauto's website. I'll give it a shot then!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

https://www.princessauto.com/en/2-pc-disposable-in-line-moisture-filters/product/PA0008528598
given that your air compressor might be running alot the air might be hot going into the tank and coupled with humidity you get moisture in the line. use these filters in your line and you wont gum up the gun with moisture and wet media that you would have to clear all the time. learned from experience but i was using the siphon gun that they sell for 32 dollars. if you have a 30 gal compressor that might be the better option as you just stick the siphon into the media bag and start blasting . they also have a hood that you can get that protects your head usually goes on sale for half off. could use cheap googles and a welders beanie but you need something as that media will ricochet back at you. not worth getting that in your eyes. the other thing about blasting is it goes everywhere so I used some canvas drop sheets for paint use any type of sheet even plastic but use something as it will go everywhere in your garage otherwise and the bonus is that the sheets collect the media and you can reuse it after sifting out the crap for which i use a dollar store sifter . best of luck just i not want you thinking that you only need the gun. you will be pleased with the results though with the siphon gun if your compressor is a bit larger but the hopper gun takes longer as it is meant for smaller jobs i blasted the entire pan and all suspension components as well as surface rust on the body that was pits that the sanding did not remove.
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VicVan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

After some wire wheelin'.... and some screwdriver-pokin'...

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More holes! Will try the sandblaster next.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

That's really not too bad. If you coated everything in rust converter you could let it be. It wouldn't be too much work to weld up those holes though.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Rust, here I come! Reply with quote

Yeah, I think this is the path I'm going to take... Or just epoxy them shut so if there's any moisture it doesn't go down in the cavity below.
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