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Freeform
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Las Vegas
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 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:37 am Post subject: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| I was idling in a drive thru for about 10 minutes and stopped the engine to take an order, tried to start when i finished and all i got was a click. had someone help me push it out and got it jump started and it ran fine. started driving home and got curious to see if i could turn off the engine while driving and turn it back on using the ignition and got nothing, so i just popped the clutch and continued driving. i got home and checked the alternator gen lamp in the speedometer and no issue there. all i get is a click when trying to start. has my battery gone bad or is it still a alternator or maybe even a starter issue? |
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gt1953
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:37 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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Check all of the ground connections and the wires on the starter. Take a volt meter and check the battery.
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:25 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| gt1953 wrote: |
| Check all of the ground connections and the wires on the starter. Take a volt meter and check the battery. |
Do NOT disconnect the battery while the engine is running !!!
1. Post voltage across battery terminals when the engine is running about 2000 rpm. This is a charging system test.
2. Do you really have an alternator, or is yours generator-equipped? Post a photo if you're unsure. With an alternator, the little warning light in the speedometer cluster must be operative to charge properly; when your turn key to run, that light should come on, and then go off once the engine is started.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34013
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Sounds like a dead battery, but you want to drill down and figure out if a good battery went bad, when it was last replaced, if you have any other charging issues, etc. |
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Freeform
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| gt1953 wrote: |
| Check all of the ground connections and the wires on the starter. Take a volt meter and check the battery. |
Do NOT disconnect the battery while the engine is running !!!
1. Post voltage across battery terminals when the engine is running about 2000 rpm. This is a charging system test.
2. Do you really have an alternator, or is yours generator-equipped? Post a photo if you're unsure. With an alternator, the little warning light in the speedometer cluster must be operative to charge properly; when your turn key to run, that light should come on, and then go off once the engine is started. |
im running to autozone after a doctors appointment and getting a new ohmmeter, mines MIA after being stuck in the in n out parking lot. ill let you know when im home and have the car started.
i got underneath the car last night and checked the starter connections, theyre all good.
i have a bosch alternator and the lights in the speedometer come on when i put it in the start position. all lights in the car fade when i turn the ignition and i hear a click. |
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Freeform
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| i got home from my doctors appointment and flipped the key in start position to double check if the alternator light was on. out of curiosity i flipped the ignition and my car turned on no issue. any cause for this sudden overnight self fix? |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34013
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Aged batteries will recover slightly when sitting, but it won't last. |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:30 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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You can test a battery with a load tester. A quick and dirty load test is to turn the headlights on for a minute or so, then check the battery voltage. Anything less than 12.2 is bad, but you may be able to put it on a charger and recover it.
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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lboos
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2015
Posts: 410
Location: Marietta GA.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:44 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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Look at the date on the batt. if it's over four years old, buy a new one.
[most of the time].  |
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Freeform
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:57 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| gt1953 wrote: |
| Check all of the ground connections and the wires on the starter. Take a volt meter and check the battery. |
1. Post voltage across battery terminals when the engine is running about 2000 rpm. This is a charging system test.
. |
i put my ohmmeter on the alternator and battery while i had someone pressing on the gas. i was reading 12.40 on the alternator while idling and running 2000. i checked the battery and was getting 12.35 while it was idling and running it went up to 12.36 at around 2000. is this alright? its lower than when i first tested it a few months ago and got 13.5 while idling. should i put my battery on a slow charger or is something wrong with my alternator. thanks in advance i appreciate everyones help. |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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Alternator is not charging. You are reading battery voltage
_________________
Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Freeform wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| gt1953 wrote: |
| Check all of the ground connections and the wires on the starter. Take a volt meter and check the battery. |
1. Post voltage across battery terminals when the engine is running about 2000 rpm. This is a charging system test.
. |
I checked the battery and was getting 12.35 while it was idling and running it went up to 12.36 at around 2000. is this alright? |
NO, not alright. There's no charging happening.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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toxicavenger70
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2019
Posts: 871
Location: CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Freeform wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
| gt1953 wrote: |
| Check all of the ground connections and the wires on the starter. Take a volt meter and check the battery. |
1. Post voltage across battery terminals when the engine is running about 2000 rpm. This is a charging system test.
. |
I checked the battery and was getting 12.35 while it was idling and running it went up to 12.36 at around 2000. is this alright? |
NO, not alright. There's no charging happening. |
When running it should be around 14v. |
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lboos
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2015
Posts: 410
Location: Marietta GA.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| Use the the KISS sys. you still have not said how old is the batt??? their is a date on the batt..... a simple test is to remove the batt. and temp. install one from an other car and try it. a bad batt. can cause all kinds of elect. prob's. |
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Freeform
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:00 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| lboos wrote: |
| Use the the KISS sys. you still have not said how old is the batt??? their is a date on the batt..... a simple test is to remove the batt. and temp. install one from an other car and try it. a bad batt. can cause all kinds of elect. prob's. |
i bought the battery new about 4 months ago. ill try switching it up later though and post my findings. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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A fully charged 12v automotive battery should read 12.6v at rest (everything OFF). Test to see what your battery reads.
To properly recharge the battery, the alternator output should be at least 13.8v+ to recharge the battery after starting the car. The voltage reading you posted indicate your are running off the battery alone and the charging system is doing nothing. Every time you run the car you are discharging the battery even more. If you have a trickle charger you should recharge your battery after every drive.
There have been some that have driven their Beetles around for years with a bad charging system. They just run off the battery and recharge it once they get home. Not what I would recommend, but it has been done.
Step1 & 2 - Charge your battery then load test it. If either fails replace your battery. If it is only a few months old you should be able to get a replacement for little to no cost.
Step 3 - Check that there is 12v on the D+ wire at the alternator or VR. With the engine OFF and the ignition switch in the ON/RUN position, find the D+ wire at the alternator or at the VR. Test the voltage on this wire. This wire is powered by the GEN lamp in the speedometer so should read around 12v. If there is no power on this wire before the engine starts the alternator will never begin charging. So even a blown GEN lamp bulb in the speedometer can prevent the charging system from working.
Step 4 - Start the engine. With a fully charged battery, does the engine crank and start now? While the engine is running, re-check your charging system with a now fully charged battery. Raise the rpms to around 2100rpms and test the voltage at the battery terminals. Do you now see 13.8v+? If it is less than 12.6v it means the charging system is not working at all.
If it is your charging system, you need to identify if your alternator has an internal or external voltage regulator. The internally regulated alternators have only two wires (B+ stud and D+ terminal). The externally regulated alternators have four wire (B+ stud; D+, D-, DF terminals) three of which run to an external VR box (usually under the rear seat).
A charging problem on an externally regulated alternator could be caused by the VR or the alternator. On internally regulated alternators it is all self-contained in one unit and you just replace the entire alternator with a new/rebuilt one as the VR is internal.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Freeform
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2020
Posts: 10
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
A fully charged 12v automotive battery should read 12.6v at rest (everything OFF). Test to see what your battery reads.
To properly recharge the battery, the alternator output should be at least 13.8v+ to recharge the battery after starting the car. The voltage reading you posted indicate your are running off the battery alone and the charging system is doing nothing. Every time you run the car you are discharging the battery even more. If you have a trickle charger you should recharge your battery after every drive.
There have been some that have driven their Beetles around for years with a bad charging system. They just run off the battery and recharge it once they get home. Not what I would recommend, but it has been done.
Step1 & 2 - Charge your battery then load test it. If either fails replace your battery. If it is only a few months old you should be able to get a replacement for little to no cost.
Step 3 - Check that there is 12v on the D+ wire at the alternator or VR. With the engine OFF and the ignition switch in the ON/RUN position, find the D+ wire at the alternator or at the VR. Test the voltage on this wire. This wire is powered by the GEN lamp in the speedometer so should read around 12v. If there is no power on this wire before the engine starts the alternator will never begin charging. So even a blown GEN lamp bulb in the speedometer can prevent the charging system from working.
Step 4 - Start the engine. With a fully charged battery, does the engine crank and start now? While the engine is running, re-check your charging system with a now fully charged battery. Raise the rpms to around 2100rpms and test the voltage at the battery terminals. Do you now see 13.8v+? If it is less than 12.6v it means the charging system is not working at all.
If it is your charging system, you need to identify if your alternator has an internal or external voltage regulator. The internally regulated alternators have only two wires (B+ stud and D+ terminal). The externally regulated alternators have four wire (B+ stud; D+, D-, DF terminals) three of which run to an external VR box (usually under the rear seat).
A charging problem on an externally regulated alternator could be caused by the VR or the alternator. On internally regulated alternators it is all self-contained in one unit and you just replace the entire alternator with a new/rebuilt one as the VR is internal. |
I started the car today again after checking all of the connections and it regained a charge enough to start again. i immediately checked the alternators voltage and i got 13.6 before it bumped itself to 13.81 at idle so it was charging. however, a few minutes after it fell to 12.11 and then to 11.81 and thats when i decided to cut the engine and put it on a trickle charger as you recommended.
here below ive posted photos of my connections and photos of the bulb lights. the first photo shows both the alternator and oil gen lights working and just a few minutes after i removed the alternator bulb and put it back in to see if possibly there could be a bad connection. after that it has not turned back on. it did not touch ground and the bulb is not burnt out.. below ive posted the back of the speedometer and the fuses (not sure if the fuses have anything to do with the bulb at this moment) along with all the connections that run from the alternators D+ terminal to the bulb in the speedometer, the B+ terminal that runs to the starter, and the starter connections to the battery. also in there i threw in a photo of the ignition connections.
i have not ran a load test on the battery as of yet but from everything ive seen its pointed towards a bad alternator(?) im not sure why the idiot light wont turn back on either. maybe a bad connection when it should have been going off in the first place. again, im not sure. I have video of the light working before the bulb was removed and i put back in. i could upload to youtube and link it here if you’re curious. in the video i had just started the car and because of that it would easily stall, so i let off the gas and the bulb started flickering on before i gave it more gas.
also in case of confusion, the dice next to the ignition (fifth photo) is in place of the radio so that i can stop winds from blowing into the cabin
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34013
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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| ... and corroded, so I'd at least spin them all to make better contact. That won't explain your starting problem, but it might cure other gremlins. |
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viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2668
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 beetle wont start unless jumped, battery wont charge |
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I don’t like those positive battery cables with the clamp on connections. They can corrode underneath the clamp.
Pull it apart and clean it up, or at least check it out underneath.
And what is the additional cut off red wire for?
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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