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theguyryry
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Portland, OR
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 Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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Thanks for all the info everyone. This is definitely a lot of food for thought.
Regarding my initial questions, I haven't been convinced that it's a bad idea to buy a bus on loan. It seems the consensus was that campers were beginning to climb in price before covid hit, and in the long term could be assumed (you know what that makes me) that they will continue to rise in value (again, not wanting a bus as an investment, but it's nice to know it wouldn't depreciate as much as a new / newish car).
Potential downsides:
it's broken down and I'm still making payments on it.
This is definitely going to happen at one point or another. But to me this is more of a psychological barrier, as it would be just as painful to pay 25k for a car and have it break down as well.
I pay more for interest
This is true, but being able to start driving / owning / working on my own bus now, compared to a year or so from now seems worth the few thousand I'd be paying in interest over the course of the loan.
Again, thank you all for the responses. They are making me well informed, at the consequence of making my decision harder. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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Heres what is wrong
| Quote: |
Member since:
March 25, 2021
Ad placed
1 - Excellent
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:24 pm
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Buy from someone who has contributed here , not the ones who show up to grift their goods
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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There is a difference between a breakdown and a restoration. I’ve seen some paint jobs take months. I vote for you to buy something that won’t grow roots before you can have fun with it. That’s going to be at least $25k. Others buy the $6k bus and can’t drive it because of all the work it needs.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
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Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
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VW Jetta
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2205
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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1. prices may dip. 20%. But rise again.
2. don't take out a loan for a vintage VW Bus.
3. you require mechanical aptitude & a space to park it for repairs,
there will be repairs. Some slight, some so major you will need a back up
set of wheels for six weeks. That or have a spare drivetrain to swap in.
4. Watch the bears. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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my 0.02....
i just watched the barrett jackson auction the other day. prices on EVEYTHING have gone too the moon...
this may be an anomaly due to everything being closed because of the Covid and people 1) didn't spend much last year because they were stuck home 2) decided after that b/s "this is going to be the year i buy xxx"
i was blown away at what stuff sold for. my dreams of a 70 C10 went up in smoke after that.
anyway....i bought my first bus when i was 11...had one ever since. never in my life did i look at these as an investment.... i did it for me. fixer-uppers are in the 5-8k range and a decent (not pretty) bus can be had for 15-20k
because everyone was stuck camper prices went batshit crazy (see what i did there) even the little pop top shitbox shasta's were commanding STUPID money.... you know...the ones that are usually free or 600 bux on craigslist.
no way would i take a loan out on one, unless you have the $$ to back it up and it was a perfect road ready rig.
prices will fluctuate somewhat but i don't ever see them being "cheap" again.
they are fun and reasonably practical when well sorted. engines, no matter what flavor (T1 or T4) are getting to the point of impossible to find quality parts for, and rebuilds done properly can take forever.
personally if i wanted to just randomly camp i'd be after a chevy G van or a ferd econoswine if camping was the end goal. you can eat, sleep and fuck just as easily in one of those for far less money than a vw
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2539
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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I wouldn’t take out a loan to buy a bus unless it was it was fully redone both mechanically and bodywork. I would have to see photos of how the work was done under the paint and documentation about the engine build and other mechanical work. I doubt such a bus exists, at least not in the price range.
If my end goal was camping and long distance travel, I would buy a new or lightly used Japanese or domestic van and build my own interior. It is not hard to build a functional interior with a bed and storage unless you are trying to create an IKEA showroom on wheels.
If you insist on having a bus, I would try to find one that was a mechanically sound driver, with the least rust with unmolested bodywork. The whole loan thing and value. These buses are money pits, pure and simple and they suck up tons of time. If you don’t enjoy that work and I don’t mean just tinkering, then the whole thing is just a big loadstone.
I went through a ten year stretch of having a reliable bus that I could just get in and drive. During that time, I drove it often and kept after it. No breakdowns, but occasional minor issues that were easy fixes for me but would strand the average driver.
Good luck though. Take your time looking. |
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theguyryry
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
| I wouldn’t take out a loan to buy a bus unless it was it was fully redone both mechanically and bodywork. |
I appreciate the opinion. What's your idea / concern behind this? I can't wrap my head around why taking a loan out for a bus that's appreciating in value over time is a bad idea. (Edit: a worse idea than any other car loan)
| orwell84 wrote: |
| If my end goal was camping and long distance travel, I would buy a new or lightly used Japanese or domestic van and build my own interior. It is not hard to build a functional interior with a bed and storage unless you are trying to create an IKEA showroom on wheels. |
I thought about this, but at the end of the day, those vehicles just don't really do it for me. The econoline, chinooks, dodge ram campers, they just don't hit me with the same level of excitement. They're cool, and they definitely serve the purpose, but if I'm going to spend the money, why not buy the thing I'm envisioning instead of the more practical runner up? |
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theguyryry
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| timvw7476 wrote: |
| 2. don't take out a loan for a vintage VW Bus. |
I see a lot of people saying this. What's the reasoning behind this? 6-7% interest rate over 5 years is like $5,000 paid. It's a lot of money, but there's a pretty good chance the car would be harder to find and about that price range by the time I could save enough money to actually buy it outright without a loan (estimating that at around 1.5 years).
| timvw7476 wrote: |
| you require mechanical aptitude & a space to park it for repairs, there will be repairs. Some slight, some so major you will need a back up set of wheels for six weeks. That or have a spare drivetrain to swap in. |
The DIY part of it is a bonus for me. I like working on cars / solving problems and stuff like that, and I'm ok with needing to work on it. I'm fortunate enough to not need a 100% rock solid daily driver, as I work from home. I also have a 1st gen 4runner, and my GF has a newer subaru. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| theguyryry wrote: |
| timvw7476 wrote: |
| 2. don't take out a loan for a vintage VW Bus. |
I see a lot of people saying this. What's the reasoning behind this? 6-7% interest rate over 5 years is like $5,000 paid. It's a lot of money, but there's a pretty good chance the car would be harder to find and about that price range by the time I could save enough money to actually buy it outright without a loan (estimating that at around 1.5 years).
| timvw7476 wrote: |
| you require mechanical aptitude & a space to park it for repairs, there will be repairs. Some slight, some so major you will need a back up set of wheels for six weeks. That or have a spare drivetrain to swap in. |
The DIY part of it is a bonus for me. I like working on cars / solving problems and stuff like that, and I'm ok with needing to work on it. I'm fortunate enough to not need a 100% rock solid daily driver, as I work from home. I also have a 1st gen 4runner, and my GF has a newer subaru. |
If you have a 401k making more than 6-7% this makes sense. If you dont, you cant afford this car yet. Plan for the future.
Your Bus will not be an appreciating asset. If you are under 30, your goal should be to have 50k in the market by 30 - that means you are done with retirement saving. All your spending should be focussed on that goal. Then you can enjoy life.
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secretsubmariner
Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011
Posts: 3104
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| theguyryry wrote: |
| timvw7476 wrote: |
| 2. don't take out a loan for a vintage VW Bus. |
I see a lot of people saying this. What's the reasoning behind this? 6-7% interest rate over 5 years is like $5,000 paid. It's a lot of money, but there's a pretty good chance the car would be harder to find and about that price range by the time I could save enough money to actually buy it outright without a loan (estimating that at around 1.5 years).
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My reply on page one is exactly why. If you're looking for confirmation bias on this subject, you won't find it here. Although if you're trying to slam it on earlies, you might 
Let's break it down differently, then.
-Do you own your home? What's rent/mortgage?
-Do you have a 401K or other retirement plans? ($GME? LOL)
-Do you make a payment on your daily driver?
-Do you help your GF with payments on her newer subaru?
-Do you have any other debt or garnishments? Personal loan, child support, debt collection, etc.
-What do your utilities usually run?
-Will you be making the payment on this bus by yourself?
Loan Details. 20,000.00, 60 month note (5 yrs)
-at 6% interest is $386.66 per month
-at 4% it's $368.33 per month
-If you somehow managed 2.9%, $358.49 per month.
Have you found an institution that will loan you money based on such an old vehicle? Most banks and CU's won't accept really old cars as collateral.
If you cant find one, how will you qualify to borrow $20,000? Are you willing to put up the title to your daily as collateral? Is it worth 20K?
Can you afford to pay that for 5 years, every month?
Then, can you afford to pay that every month for 5 years, on top of buying specialty tools, replacing tires on a 3rd car, replacement parts (NOS German isn't usually cheap and it's the best quality). If you were to find a good ACVW mechanic, you'll be paying top dollar.
When it breaks down, and you can't live the #vanlife for months on end, how happy will you be with your $386.66-$358.49 payment?
If you put another car's title as collateral to get the loan (not possible if you're still paying it off), then what happens if you lose your job and get behind on payments? They would repo your collateral
Think about this. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm a Certified Credit Union Financial Counselor. Looking over stuff like this is kinda my thing.
Unless you have a big fatass wad of cash to burn on a bus, this right here is why it's not a good idea *gestures broadly at everything*
_________________
-Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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theguyryry
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-Do you own your home? What's rent/mortgage?
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I own a home, I'm renting it out and just sorta traveling with my gf during covid. we're both working remotely.
| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-Do you have a 401K or other retirement plans? ($GME? LOL)
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GME to the moon! haha jk. I have a 401k and a separate webull account where I can pretend i'm a wall street hedge fundy, but it's mostly just for fun. the 401k is my main retirement plan.
| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-Do you make a payment on your daily driver?
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I don't. Although I don't really use it as a daily driver, and if I did I'm sure I'd have to start putting money into it. (87 4runner, needs suspension. fresh motor though, so that's a start).
| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-Do you help your GF with payments on her newer subaru?
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Nope. her parents are well off and make all the payments for her.
| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-Do you have any other debt or garnishments? Personal loan, child support, debt collection, etc.
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I have about 15k total in debt (not including mortgage). Most of it is 0% interest.
| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-What do your utilities usually run?
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$200 split with my gf.
| secretsubmariner wrote: |
-Will you be making the payment on this bus by yourself?
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I did find a company (lightstream) that will do a classic car loan. I was approved for 20k, but haven't accepted it yet. 7.69% APR.
If you are all recommending I not take a loan out, the options that I see are:
- Don't buy a bus. Throw the idea out the window, take a trip to Mexico or something and forget about it.
- Buy a rusted / needs work bus. Spend a bunch of time and money over the next few years getting into the shape of a 25k bus, and 3 years from now be super happy with it, having spent the same amount of money (or more) and waiting 3 years to have it where I want it. I'm now old, and my back hurts.
- Wait a couple of years until I can buy it with cash. This means I won't have a bus for a few years, so I lose out on that enjoyment / experience during that time. Market value of bay windows have gone up, resulting in me spending the same amount of money as if I'd taken a loan out a couple years prior.
The most sane decision seems to be to not buy a bus. That being said, I think everyone here is aware that we aren't talking about a 50 year old vehicle on the internet because it's lucrative / makes sense / is the smart thing to do. We're here because old VW's are cool as hell, and we'd rather be sitting in our driveway working on something that gives you THAT experience, than driving 80 down the freeway in our practical sprinter vans.
Idk guys. I'm still not convinced. |
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alman72
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2014
Posts: 2573
Location: MICHIGAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| unless the bus you linked has a seller with fat fingers, that has soooo many reasons it is not a 72. If he does not know what year bus he owns, i would not trust him to have done repair/restore correctly |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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There's actually good advice on here… Must be April 1st…
YOLO on the bus. When you sell it, post your loss.  
If you're stubborn enough to make it this far in the thread and come back for more, you'll be fine.
Robbie
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| theguyryry wrote: |
I did find a company (lightstream) that will do a classic car loan. I was approved for 20k, but haven't accepted it yet. 7.69% APR.
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fuck that.
you said something about these appreciating in value....that's not a guarantee ask the guy that popped 200k+ for a split window a few years back. one hasn't sold since for that kind of money.
lets say you buy your 20k bus...which could be a nice one...useable but not perfect. then said bus blows an engine. assuming it's a T4 powered bus you just dropped an ez 8k on an engine (if done by a reputable builder)
now your trans shits the sheets. here is another 3k up in smoke. now your 20k bus which was really probably only worth 15k but you blew your wad on it because you had to have it has racked up 11k in repairs.
on the surface you couldn't get 31k for that bus to "get out of it" and you'd be lucky to get your original 20k back.
yes, bay windows have gone up in value. they aren't on a missile to the moon and have kind of peaked. for a while they were barely on a bottle rocket.
i dunno.... i wouldn't EVER look at any of this stuff as an investment
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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secretsubmariner
Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011
Posts: 3104
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| theguyryry wrote: |
- Buy a rusted / needs work bus. Spend a bunch of time and money over the next few years getting into the shape of a 25k bus, and 3 years from now be super happy with it, having spent the same amount of money (or more) and waiting 3 years to have it where I want it. I'm now old, and my back hurts.
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Wow, I didn't expect you to actually answer most of that lol.
Idk man, I understand back pain. But I think your expectation is kinda unrealistic. This 25K price point you have in your head is a fabrication of the "market" meaning, like others have said, ebay ads and the like that show a gorgeous bus with basically all mechanical things wrong or not maintained.
I think for 10K or less you could find a running, driving bus that needs some maintenance and fixing up. But the thing is, you don't have to have a 25K bus to camp. If it runs and drives, make up a bed, strap a cooler in, load up the fishing poles, and hit the trails!
Its the same old song. Buy a Bentley (the green book). Pick up a couple of tools. Find a decent running and driving bus. Make it your own.
You don't have to have a fresh coat of paint, new upholstery, freeway flyer transmission, jake raby super engine just to go camping.
Enjoy it while you are fixing it up. It doesn't HAVE to take 3 years. The perceived "value" of these things does go up all the time, but there are gems out there.
Either way, good luck. If you don't get a good running driving bus that needs work for a good price, then there will only be one more fish in the sea for the rest of us
_________________
-Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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theguyryry
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
yes, bay windows have gone up in value. they aren't on a missile to the moon and have kind of peaked. for a while they were barely on a bottle rocket.
i dunno.... i wouldn't EVER look at any of this stuff as an investment |
That's good info to get your insight on the price fluctuations of bay windows. I've only been at this for about 6 months, and it's hard to find historical pricing data for these.
Secondly, totally agree with you. I'm not looking at it as an investment. I just think that if I were to compare it to buying a new / certified pre owned car on loan, the bus would depreciate less quickly. |
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secretsubmariner
Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011
Posts: 3104
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| theguyryry wrote: |
I did find a company (lightstream) that will do a classic car loan. I was approved for 20k, but haven't accepted it yet. 7.69% APR.
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fuck that.
you said something about these appreciating in value....that's not a guarantee ask the guy that popped 200k+ for a split window a few years back. one hasn't sold since for that kind of money.
lets say you buy your 20k bus...which could be a nice one...useable but not perfect. then said bus blows an engine. assuming it's a T4 powered bus you just dropped an ez 8k on an engine (if done by a reputable builder)
now your trans shits the sheets. here is another 3k up in smoke. now your 20k bus which was really probably only worth 15k but you blew your wad on it because you had to have it has racked up 11k in repairs.
on the surface you couldn't get 31k for that bus to "get out of it" and you'd be lucky to get your original 20k back.
yes, bay windows have gone up in value. they aren't on a missile to the moon and have kind of peaked. for a while they were barely on a bottle rocket.
i dunno.... i wouldn't EVER look at any of this stuff as an investment |
Great points. *gesturing again broadly at all of this information*
Also, don't go to a predatory online lender. You will regret it.
_________________
-Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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Theres plenty of time to enjoy camping etc in your life - dont try to 'do it all' in your 20s
Im in my seventh decade and still dont have urgency to knock things off my bucket list.
Every dollar you spend in your twenties increases the chance you will be wondering what hit you in your 50s when they fire you for the awesome kid they think can do your job for half of what you make.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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Historical pricing:
2012 - $9500
2021 - same price:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2461029
So… Purchase a bus for $9500, put $15k and nine years into it, and now have a $30k bus? What's your time worth?
--
Here's another…
2016, the day I sold it for $4500 after daily driving it for months:
2021 - same price:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2459365
--
So yes, prices are going up. 8% a year? The only winner there is your loan shark. I'm the real winner here every time someone new buys a bus…
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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theguyryry
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2021
Posts: 100
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Bay Window |
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| @airschooled I have yet to see a bus in a condition similar to those asking less than 15k, assuming there isn't a bunch of rust hidden in those photos. Are you just getting lucky? What's your trick? |
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