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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:12 am Post subject: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Hi Folks
When I bought my van it was all one solid colour (freshly painted and rust repaired) and looked all pretty nice.... ....but over time bondo started cracking in some areas, and other areas where the rust was not dealt with properly, started bubbling thru, leaving me to have to dig in and do some major rust re-repairing... etc etc.... the result is what you now can see in the 10 fotos below.
Of course there is some seam rust to deal with... and a little bit under the window seals in some areas.
Otherwise my goal is to essentially get the thing looking relatively presentable. I'm not interested in perfection, and I will like to be able to drive thru bushes from time to time and not worry about getting a few scratches - but on the other hand, the way it looks now is pretty sad. The major ugly spots are where I put on a bit of bondo, then painted with green colour epoxy primer - that's all, and no leveling and flat sanding or anything like that.
Right now I am looking to get a grasp of the big picture, and formulate a game plan for dealing with this in April - to be really for a Summer trip.
I guess the first thing is to
- grind out all the rust... seams, etc...
- Next would be to treat the metal
- then fill the seams
- then fiber bondo, then fine bondo, then flat sand.
- then epoxy primer...
- FINALLY, I am intending to buy some top coat - hopefully the same colour - and apply that with a roller, then do some serious flat-sanding... and polishing.
I guess the part that I am most concerned about is getting the top coat to look decent.
Anyone done this kinda thing before??
Thanks
Ed
PS - lastly I'd like to paint the wheels also
and also repait the custom bumpers gloss black.
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3016 Location: MD
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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I think everyone here has done this before. It seems to go hand in hand with vanagon ownership. You have a solid plan. Make repairs as small as they need to be and no larger.
Wear a leather/heavy duty apron if you intend to wire wheel for an extended period of time. Which it looks like you will be doing. Use a wire wheel on and angle grinder, not a drill. Just go nuts with the wire wheel and enjoy the absolute chasm of despair after you see the amount of work in front of you. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16501 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Just go nuts with the wire wheel and enjoy the absolute chasm of despair after you see the amount of work in front of you. |
I've seen your Syncro and know of what you speak.
(Phaedon, if you could have seen how Ed began his Vanagon ownership adventure you'd know that he will not give up in the face of any adversity!) _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32572 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Thanks guys....
I am intregued by the concept of a WIRE WHEEL on an angle grinder. I have never done that. What I generally use are small grinding bits on a Dremel. Is that an inferior option?
I guess the obvious thing I didn't mention is that wherever there is rust coming thru (especially seems) I am going to have to somehow access the reverse side to see what is going on there...... _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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smeeegheeead Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2021 Posts: 48 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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epowell wrote: |
Thanks guys....
I am intregued by the concept of a WIRE WHEEL on an angle grinder. I have never done that. What I generally use are small grinding bits on a Dremel. Is that an inferior option?
I guess the obvious thing I didn't mention is that wherever there is rust coming thru (especially seems) I am going to have to somehow access the reverse side to see what is going on there...... |
Yeah... not really going to be effective enough. I typically use a large cup style wire wheel on a grinder for heavier jobs such as whats pictured above. Its an absolutely different world than using a dremel. The reason that folks advise to wear a leather apron is that when using a grinder with a wire wheel, wire bits will be flung off the wheel as you work and will be embedded into your clothes and skin. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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smeeegheeead wrote: |
epowell wrote: |
Thanks guys....
I am intregued by the concept of a WIRE WHEEL on an angle grinder. I have never done that. What I generally use are small grinding bits on a Dremel. Is that an inferior option?
I guess the obvious thing I didn't mention is that wherever there is rust coming thru (especially seems) I am going to have to somehow access the reverse side to see what is going on there...... |
Yeah... not really going to be effective enough. I typically use a large cup style wire wheel on a grinder for heavier jobs such as whats pictured above. Its an absolutely different world than using a dremel. The reason that folks advise to wear a leather apron is that when using a grinder with a wire wheel, wire bits will be flung off the wheel as you work and will be embedded into your clothes and skin. |
Aha.... now this starts to make sense! Thanks!
The worst part of the job is the neverending grinding with the dremel. Of course the dremel is perfect for the tight spots. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3016 Location: MD
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Definitely get wire wheels for the dremel and for the drill for the those successively smaller places where the angle grinder can't reach.
Get several different profiles too. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=types+of+wire+wheels+ang...;ia=images
Just look at all these choices. A cup style like smeeeg mentioned is a good choice. I'd also get a concave style and then 2 different flat styles. One that is twisted and one that is not twisted. The twisted wire style will tear through some stuff. Be careful with it. It will also save you a lot of time.
Because I hate to constantly switch attachments I find that having 3 angle grinders is a good way to work. Obviously you could buy more, but 3 seems like it works out well. 1 cut wheel, 1 grind wheel, 1 clean (wire wheel). Having 2 is acceptable. You will be really annoyed with only 1. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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alaskadan Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013 Posts: 1856 Location: anchor pt. alaska
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Don't tell anyone, but I take the guard off of the angle grinder because it just gets in the way. The dremel is way too wimpy for most of this work, had we known you've been doing all this work with a dremel we would have suggested more power a long time ago Ed. I like the braided wire cups and wheels. Especially the braided wheels with the threaded arbor. After you use it for awhile the wires start to lean one direction and get a little less effective. Flip it over and now they are leaning into the cut and really hog material off. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Yeah.... strange - I remember being surprised when the dremel method was suggested to me here - I assumed it would be too wimpy... but went for it anyway and have been using that for years now. It's very convenient but sometimes SLOW!
So there you go - - - never get too confident to stop asking for help. I already learned something to save me tons of time! _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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alaskadan Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013 Posts: 1856 Location: anchor pt. alaska
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Yep live and learn . You may be tempted to buy the 16 dollar harbor freight grinder, I did. I went through a few of them doing as many car restos. They work but thats about it. If you value the cartilage in your hands pay for a good name brand grinder. Dewalt, makita, Milwaukee etc. Right out of the box they will be way smoother. I have to wonder how my wrists and knuckles would feel today without the hundreds of hours behind a HF grinder. I ran them into the ground until they melted or the gearbox ground to a halt. You know there was a little vibration going on. A side note, grab a couple of the 1/16" thick cut off wheels for it. Great for cutting out bad metal and very good for grinding down welds with a small point of contact its easier to stay right on the weld and not adjacent metals. |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3016 Location: MD
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Possibly it was mentioned in connection to the seams? Getting inside there would require a very small wire wheel. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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fleetwood41 Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2012 Posts: 106 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Not to high jack the thread, because I don't really have any advice, but I do have questions. You all seem way more experienced at this rust work than I am, although I have done tons of other work on my rig.
I'm in the exact same boat. I use the hell out of my van as a camper and a daily driver but I have some bad spots that need attention sooner than later and want to do the work myself.
So is the ultimate goal just to remove ALL visible rust down to bare metal?
What will you use to treat the metal after rust is removed?
What will you use to refill the seams?
Will epoxy primer survive on it's own? How long? Is the top coat mandatory for longevity? (This is the part that I could really screw up, but I'm not looking for perfection either.)
Thanks for any help! And again, sorry if I'm high jacking this thread but it looks like Ed has some attention and the good information is coming forward. _________________ 1987 2WD w/ 2.5 Subi & Poptop Conversion |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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fleetwood41 wrote: |
Not to high jack the thread, because I don't really have any advice, but I do have questions. You all seem way more experienced at this rust work than I am, although I have done tons of other work on my rig.
I'm in the exact same boat. I use the hell out of my van as a camper and a daily driver but I have some bad spots that need attention sooner than later and want to do the work myself.
So is the ultimate goal just to remove ALL visible rust down to bare metal?
What will you use to treat the metal after rust is removed?
What will you use to refill the seams?
Will epoxy primer survive on it's own? How long? Is the top coat mandatory for longevity? (This is the part that I could really screw up, but I'm not looking for perfection either.)
Thanks for any help! And again, sorry if I'm high jacking this thread but it looks like Ed has some attention and the good information is coming forward. |
Please ask all you want - these are the same questions I have - and you have the same goals.
See my pics, I just put the green epoxy primer and a quick fix over spots a sorta fixed. That primer started out as the same colour as the original top coat - but wow, the sun very quickly faded the primer. I have a feeling that the primer is very strong but not designed to be hit directly by the sun.
This will be the first time for me using top coat - the idea is to sorta get it to look like the original somewhat. I think actually on top of the TOP coat there ideally should also be a few coats of transparant clear (maybe?)... but I won't do that.... just high gloss top coat. I can see now that epoxy primer doesn't work well 'on top'.
I'm still not sure what to use for filling the seams.
...otherwise just grind it all down to bare metal, then treat with rust converter.... then epoxy prime.... then fiber bondo.... then fine bondo.... then epoxy primer again.... then top coat.
...did I get that right??
I think the really hard part to making it look nice is the FLAT SANDING! _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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alaskadan Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013 Posts: 1856 Location: anchor pt. alaska
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Read the instructions for any paints and primers you buy. Most have time frames for topcoating before you have to sand and or prime again. Etching primers really help adhesion. I don't get the whole roll on paint job thing. It just makes a big job tougher imho. If someone was going to be OK with the results of a rolled on paint job then a 50 dollar spray gun will best that. Is it no need to mask everything off? Either method the windows should all be removed so masking is a piece of cake. Spraying is faster, flatter and you won't have to sand off half of it. Maybe if I lived in a county where spraying that kind of material was illegal or something. |
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fleetwood41 Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2012 Posts: 106 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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Agreed - the flat sanding, or just about any sanding, seems to be an art form! I don't understand how the good ones do what they do with body and paint.
Again, thanks to all for your input and advice. _________________ 1987 2WD w/ 2.5 Subi & Poptop Conversion |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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alaskadan wrote: |
Read the instructions for any paints and primers you buy. Most have time frames for topcoating before you have to sand and or prime again. Etching primers really help adhesion. I don't get the whole roll on paint job thing. It just makes a big job tougher imho. If someone was going to be OK with the results of a rolled on paint job then a 50 dollar spray gun will best that. Is it no need to mask everything off? Either method the windows should all be removed so masking is a piece of cake. Spraying is faster, flatter and you won't have to sand off half of it. Maybe if I lived in a county where spraying that kind of material was illegal or something. |
This has always been a big dilemma (sp.?) for me... although I build musical instruments for a living and could also use the sprayer to varnish my instruments.
I really need to start thinking about saving my hands, and also breathing in toxic dust.
But sprayer requires also an expensive air compressor, and other accessories, no? I've always hesitated to dive into that world. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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fleetwood41 wrote: |
Agreed - the flat sanding, or just about any sanding, seems to be an art form! I don't understand how the good ones do what they do with body and paint.
Again, thanks to all for your input and advice. |
Please post some pics of your van and what you are up against. _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16858 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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imho...
ALL of that bed liner has to come off. that stuff is evil and i can't stand the stuff when used on body panels.
there was a used car dealer here that LOVED that stuff. we use to call it "smith brothers black" because every car they sold had the lower 10" with that stuff plowed on hiding a spray foam and dura glass job.
the problem stripping that stuff is that once it heats up, it just smears. i'd suggest a crud thug to strip it. a wire wheel is going to heat it up too much _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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fleetwood41 Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2012 Posts: 106 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Seeking advice for major paint touch up and body work |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
imho...
ALL of that bed liner has to come off. that stuff is evil and i can't stand the stuff when used on body panels. |
@skills - I met a guy in Steamboat Colorado a few years ago who's entire van was covered in GREEN bed liner. It was evil....but impressive.
@Ed - I don't think my rust spots are as bad or as big as yours. Mine is mostly lower seams, a fender well, one from backing into a tree, and 1,000 little pockmarks....mostly below the windshield. I want to do a full respray once my finance box is stuffed full again (just paid off the mortgage!) but in the meantime, I'd like to go ahead and attack this rust and maybe learn some skills while I'm at it.
_________________ 1987 2WD w/ 2.5 Subi & Poptop Conversion |
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