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matthew henricks
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Joined: January 02, 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: So. Cal
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 Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:38 am Post subject: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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Every VW taken apart has Black, oily bolts. Trans, front end, rear end. etc.
As i put my 64 back together what finish where they from the factory? I do not think they were clear/gold zinc like they are in cars today. Looking at the published images from the 23 mile 64 but i cannot tell.
Black oxide?
Clear Zinc?
Painted?
Specifically:
Front Beam. Mounting and steering bits.
Rear Axle.
Trans mount
Engine area
Chassis to body
Shocks
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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Jos.Hall
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Joined: January 29, 2011
Posts: 336
Location: Sunny So Cal.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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I am interested in this topic as well. Hopefully someone has documentation of bolt finishes.
I do have this to offer. this is an installation kit that came with my NOS 1967 rear bumper.
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PM ME TO ADD YOUR '67 TO THE '67 BUG REGISTRY!!!!
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'67 L41 Sedan 117333192
'67 L41 Vert 157343589
'67 L19K Vert 157452166
'67 L19K Vert ??????
'67 L282 Vert 157419653
'67 L620 Sedan 117534350 (Sold)
'67 L54 Vert 15745800 (Parted out)
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matthew henricks
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Joined: January 02, 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: So. Cal
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Jos.Hall
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2011
Posts: 336
Location: Sunny So Cal.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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I've got 3 incredibly original '67s and can take some photos this weekend of some of the details. The big transmission bolts are definitely black oxide. The frame head bolts are also black oxide.
If you do a search in the classifieds for NOS bolts, there's a seller in the Philippines that has a lot of bolts.
_________________
PM ME TO ADD YOUR '67 TO THE '67 BUG REGISTRY!!!!
https://vintagejalopy.com/67bugregistry/vwbugregistry1967_view.php
'67 L41 Sedan 117333192
'67 L41 Vert 157343589
'67 L19K Vert 157452166
'67 L19K Vert ??????
'67 L282 Vert 157419653
'67 L620 Sedan 117534350 (Sold)
'67 L54 Vert 15745800 (Parted out)
'52 Split based Devin |
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matthew henricks
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Joined: January 02, 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: So. Cal
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viiking
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Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2668
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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The bolts ( at least in my ‘68 ) are black oxide. It was a cheap way to add minimal rust protection. Black oxide or parkerising is a phosphate coating. I use manganese oxide and phosphoric acid in a crock pot to oxide treat bolts.
How do I know it’s not zinc coated? Zinc coated bolts fizzle when dropped into acid as the zinc reacts.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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What are you attempting to accomplish?
Any OEM chassis bolt I’ve seen has been black oxide like the others have found. VW assembled their chassis, then gave it an overall coat of black paint. A fresh “correct” restoration won’t make any difference what the bolts are plated with because they will mostly be covered over with paint.
As for engine fasteners that are visable, like case half nuts/tin screws, they are a silver zinc plating. The only thing I can think of that was a gold cadmium type of finish were the steel components on 34 pict 3 carbs. |
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matthew henricks
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Joined: January 02, 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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| Quote: |
| What are you attempting to accomplish? |
Just paying attention to details. i know they do not all have a bright finish. I suspect they were painted or some sort of oxide finish but also realize it was not uniform and probably not consistent. (for instance i have images of a low mile bug with both black and bright finish hardware on the front end)
This is of course compounded when undercoating was applied to the car.
Anyways... I am putting together my chassis so why not ask and try and do it accurately.
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2668
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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That is why I researched black oxide treatment in bolts. I wanted the original look too. Example, the chassis or fender bolts.
It really is quite easy to do. You need manganese oxide, a pigment available from places selling pottery supplies and phosphoric acid (Ospho). You need a pot to heat the solution which you don’t have to reuse in your kitchen. Some processes treat the hardware as is and some additionally treat them in oil.
There are numerous methods available on the web.
Re the different bolts on the front end. My understanding is that the whole front end up to the brake backing plates were assembled separately then spray painted in black. Everything. This should include all hardware except the large beam attaching bolts. These would be the only bolts that would not be painted so IMO would be the only ones that weren’t just normal black.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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| matthew henricks wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What are you attempting to accomplish? |
Just paying attention to details. i know they do not all have a bright finish. I suspect they were painted or some sort of oxide finish but also realize it was not uniform and probably not consistent. (for instance i have images of a low mile bug with both black and bright finish hardware on the front end)
This is of course compounded when undercoating was applied to the car.
Anyways... I am putting together my chassis so why not ask and try and do it accurately.
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If you are not going to show the vehicle in a points judged category, the zinc, or gold cadmium/chromate bolts will stay nicer much longer. VW used black oxide most likely for cost reasons, not for durability. |
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4090
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
What are you attempting to accomplish?
Any OEM chassis bolt I’ve seen has been black oxide like the others have found. VW assembled their chassis, then gave it an overall coat of black paint. A fresh “correct” restoration won’t make any difference what the bolts are plated with because they will mostly be covered over with paint.
As for engine fasteners that are visable, like case half nuts/tin screws, they are a silver zinc plating. The only thing I can think of that was a gold cadmium type of finish were the steel components on 34 pict 3 carbs. |
This is incorrect.
They did build the front beam all the way out to the drums with unpainted parts. Then they painted the entire beam assembly.
The pan got the same dip and paint treatment as the body, just not all the finish details to make it look as good.
The transaxle was unpainted until the mid 60's when they started painting some of them, but the axle tubes were painted before they were assembled to the transaxle. The torsion spring retainers were also already painted as was the transaxle cradle. Everything was then assembled into a complete rolling pan. No other paint was applied to the chassis after this point. The only time anything got sprayed on the completed underside was dealer applied undercoating. If your car escaped undercoating then all of the fasteners will be visible
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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matthew henricks
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Joined: January 02, 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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After combing though pictures of five low mile mid 60's bug's my conclusion is much along the lines of Splitjunkie but also not consistent either. It would seem that the front beam/brake and trans/axle/rear brake were painted black as an assy with shocks added afterwards.
What i looked at were the following. None had undercoating. Not all were the same though.
- 23 mile US Spec 64 Bug
- 1900 Mile US Spec 64 bug
- 2300 Mile 66 Canadian Bug
- 14450 Mile US Spec Bug
- 53000 Mile 66 US Spec Bug
The basic premmis then is if part of the front beam or rear axle then it is BO and then painted.
Other noted items:
- Pan to Body Zinc Bolts and washer.
- Steering Dampener Zinc bolts and lock plate.
- Front Beam mount bolts. Either BO or painted
- Shock mount bolts. Painted, Zinc or Black Oxide. All three found.
- Fender bolts black oxide bolt and zinc washer
- Running board bolts zinc bolt and washer
- Gas tank zinc.
- Bumper to body zinc bolt and washer or BO Both shown.
- Rear Axle to Torsion plate. Hard to tell on this one. Could by all three.
- Brake hose clips zinc
All body mounted assemblies other than fenders appear to be Zinc bolt and washer.
All Chassis mounted parts other than noted above are likely BO.
FWIW brake lines were also metal in color. Not black.
Shocks could be black or red.
Steering box appears to be painted black with the Beam but i could not find enough evidence there.
Steering link arms are black.
Hope this thread helps someone out. All my images came from the Facebook site i listed in one of my original posts. I do not have permission to re-post the images. Sorry plus there were alot of them.
Now I have fresh zinc bolts i need to strip and either BO or paint. Bummer but i am OK with that.
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4090
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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You are definitely on the right track. The rear shocks were painted before being assembled to the chassis. This would been done by the OEM who made the shocks for VW. They were usually brown. The shocks on the front were actually the same way but they got painted black when they painted the entire beam.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
What are you attempting to accomplish?
Any OEM chassis bolt I’ve seen has been black oxide like the others have found. VW assembled their chassis, then gave it an overall coat of black paint. A fresh “correct” restoration won’t make any difference what the bolts are plated with because they will mostly be covered over with paint.
As for engine fasteners that are visable, like case half nuts/tin screws, they are a silver zinc plating. The only thing I can think of that was a gold cadmium type of finish were the steel components on 34 pict 3 carbs. |
This is incorrect.
They did build the front beam all the way out to the drums with unpainted parts. Then they painted the entire beam assembly.
The pan got the same dip and paint treatment as the body, just not all the finish details to make it look as good.
The transaxle was unpainted until the mid 60's when they started painting some of them, but the axle tubes were painted before they were assembled to the transaxle. The torsion spring retainers were also already painted as was the transaxle cradle. Everything was then assembled into a complete rolling pan. No other paint was applied to the chassis after this point. The only time anything got sprayed on the completed underside was dealer applied undercoating. If your car escaped undercoating then all of the fasteners will be visible |
From your description, the assembly order is the only thing incorrect. So, they painted the assembled beam, then installed it on the floor pan with the springplates with an overall painted finish. From both of our descriptions “the chassis” has painted over fasteners.
Your statement of “If your car escaped undercoating then all of the fasteners will be visible” is contradicting since you would not see the finish of all the fasteners of the front beam, spring plate torsion caps, and rear trans cradle that were painted.
To the op, do as you wish. If this is not a trailered show piece being taken to judged events, and is going to be driven fairly regularly, using an OEM style black oxide finished fastener is going to rust within a couple of years making all of your hard work of the chassis restoration look like shit in that amount of time. |
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Jos.Hall
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2011
Posts: 336
Location: Sunny So Cal.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
To the op, do as you wish. If this is not a trailered show piece being taken to judged events, and is going to be driven fairly regularly, using an OEM style black oxide finished fastener is going to rust within a couple of years making all of your hard work of the chassis restoration look like shit in that amount of time. |
Mr. Henricks by all appearances lives in Southern California. Rust is of no concern.
It's a noble thing to pursue excellence. It's something that should be admired not admonished.
_________________
PM ME TO ADD YOUR '67 TO THE '67 BUG REGISTRY!!!!
https://vintagejalopy.com/67bugregistry/vwbugregistry1967_view.php
'67 L41 Sedan 117333192
'67 L41 Vert 157343589
'67 L19K Vert 157452166
'67 L19K Vert ??????
'67 L282 Vert 157419653
'67 L620 Sedan 117534350 (Sold)
'67 L54 Vert 15745800 (Parted out)
'52 Split based Devin |
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matthew henricks
Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2002
Posts: 1219
Location: So. Cal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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[quote="Jos.Hall"]
| [email protected] wrote: |
It's a noble thing to pursue excellence. It's something that should be admired not admonished. |
Thank you Jos. Your location guess is correct and sometimes my pursuit of excellence is borderline obsessive. It is who i am though...
In the end i did Zinc plate the hardware. Would i do it again. probably... The finish is probably brighter than original and we lost about 5% of the parts. Sorting was a real treat especially when you know some were lost.
I am pleased with the clean look though. For the fasteners that are painted black i simply bead blasted the zinc and painted them.
_________________
1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=
Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=
Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat. |
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obieoberstar
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1126
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Factory Chassis Bolts. Zinc, Paint, Oil or ??? What Finish? |
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I just stumbled upon this topic while asking the same question.
My original front end hardware will get Parkerized. A friend has done this for old Harleys' hardware. A simple black finish.
The split lock washers and wave washers will most likely get replaced with new ones with a black oxide finish.
Thanks for all the information. |
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