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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31380 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: Explain this |
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Yes, I know it's Arizona, and it's hot here. But can anyone explain why this happens to electrical tape here??? I can't Google this because I don't know what this is called.
_________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51156 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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It happens here too, I figured moisture expanding the inner roll may have played a part, there goes that theory. Old adhesive breaking down combined with shrinkage of the vinyl I guess. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2495 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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And this is why electrical tape is not a permanent solution. Think of it as a band aid. Says the guy who works on electrical equipment that is mounted outside in the elements. _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12468
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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This is probably being stored incorrectly on a nail in the garage. I would think extreme heat would contribute to the tape curling up like that, it’s been warm in Phoenix recently yes?
Another factor is brand, some brands seem to perform better over time. What I’m using is a tape called Temflex made by Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Co. I wouldn’t normally buy something like this but.
On it being a temporary repair all of the old cars used electrical tape from the factory, guess it would last till car payments were done.
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20279 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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Dang, I have not seen 3M written in its original form in a long time. Grew up in a MN town with a large tape plant, less than a mile down the hill from our house.
I will be calling my folks tomorrow. My dad knows a bunch of retired 3M workers and engineers. I will see if he can ask them for an answer to this question, as I have had it happen, too. And I have never lived south of Big Sky, MT. _________________ nothing |
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Who.Me? Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014 Posts: 2211 Location: UK (South)
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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I wonder if the stuff has a 'grain' or bias that causes it to expand and contract differently along one edge compared to the other?
Heating and cooling cycles might cause it move in one direction more than the other with the glue acting like a lubricant when hot and fixing it in place when it cools, so it piles up like that? _________________ Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31380 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
This is probably being stored incorrectly on a nail in the garage. |
In the garage, but not hanging.
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
it’s been warm in Phoenix recently yes? |
Yes - since the last Ice Age !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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insanitize Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2003 Posts: 138 Location: Queens, NY
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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I think mrs cusser has been trying to fix the shelves in the fridge/freezer with it! _________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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turner over. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31380 Location: Hot Arizona
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2495 Location: high ridge, mo
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Pez Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003 Posts: 583 Location: Texarkana
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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Now Cusser, there is a point in a little tapes life when it begins to experience changes. These changes may seem weird but are perfectly normal.
But in this case its totally weird, such a freak. Really though we see electrical tape do this in Texas too. From work we see trucks come in with tape everywhere, When used on the chassis it still sticks well and lasts a good while. In the engine compartment it appears larger and almost swelled up. So I'm no scientist and I have self respect so I'm not a engineer either, so our guess is the plastic tape expands and on a roll follows the path of least resistance thus pushing one side out. I feel like if it where the glue expanding it would just ooze out.
Or maybe they are just excited to see you _________________ Always chasing Squirrel's. |
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brando90gl Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2007 Posts: 411 Location: Marion,NC
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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I switched to Tesa brand wiring loom tape because I got tired of sticky rolls of regular electrical tape and I wanted to use what the OEM European manufacturers used on my bikes and cars. This stuff is made for high heat application and performs pretty well when handled correctly. It’ll definitely loose some adhesion if handled with sweaty hands at the ends. Scissors are also required to snip the length desired.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016ZMXLEI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 _________________ 67 Type 1
68 Campmobile
70 Single Cab |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3899 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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It's just gravity in action. Heat makes the glue (a sticky semi-fluid) less sticky and more fluid. The coils of tape will start sliding downhill. Tape stored flat on a horizontal surface does not do that. I have twenty-year old rolls of electrical tape in my toolbox, only the rolls that got dislodged and lay at an angle show any departure from flatness. _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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I thought that too but Ive had some that were flat and did it.I figured the outer portion was tightening up or the center was swelling thus forcing the tape to go somehwere...probably the center absorbing some moisrture and swelling along with a heat sorce weather sun it whatever and time. it seems many tapes get liquider the older they get.I thinks it's the rubber/plastic affecting the addhivsive and liquidfiying it. or just time it's self and the addhivisive breakdancing down and liquidfiying.possiably another could be the moons phase when it's in the orbit of chewing gum softening the gummy addhivsive till it's more like the dog drewuel from pluto. either way I hate effing with a wireing harness thats got degrading tape, that slimey shit gets everywhere and a booger to screw with and retape with new tape.I dont think the fabrick tape does it, but it can dry out...witch starts another issue when jupiter is in retrograde........ where is that emogie of somebody beating thier dead horse |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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It’s temperature shrinking the tape and pushing the roll up to relieve the pressure
If you store it cool, it won’t happen. _________________ .ssS! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31380 Location: Hot Arizona
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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Abscate is pretty close. He got half of it! There are two items at play here. Get there in a minute.
About 90% of electrical tape made is vinyl. Vinyl is insidious crap .....but sometimes useful....crap. Some hugh end tapes like class H are made of fiberglass cloth.
I see people trying to use vinyl for things they want a permanent solution for.....and the fact they are using vinyl 100% guarantees its temporary.
Vinyl begins outgassing solvents ....and therefore shrinking ....and eventually hardening up when there are no more plasticizers to make it pliable.....the very minute its cast, molded or extruded. Long term parts like fender beading are made of vinyl....and therefore guaranteed to shrink and distort.
So....the two issues:
1. Its vinyl.....so it naturally shrinks.....and as abscate noted.....squeezes the roll and csn eventually pump out the core.
KEY TO REMEMBER: the plasticizers that are outgassed by vinyl.....are SOLVENTS....VOC's
2. The adhesive on basic, cheap vinyl electrical tapes are rubber based.....either natural or synthetic. The rubber is dissolved in a very low flash point, fast evaporating solvent like methylene chloride (low corrosive) or ethyl acetate (eventually will become corrosive).....and then roll or slot-die coated onto wide sheets of vinyl .....and dried in an explosion proof oven.....and then rolled up into one big wide roll (may be upwards to 144" wide).....and sliced into narrow rolls.
The problems this causes:
The problem is that as you roll materials like this.....as the roll grows in diameter....the roll tension needs to be reduced as you go. This is hard to control. The material near the inner core is under more tension.....which = more compression, twist and shear. So thats an initial problem.
The next big problem is that the rubber in the adhesive....readily absorbs and dissolves in solvent. And.....REMEMBER.....vinyl outgasses solvents. And....vinyl accelerates ots outgassing of solvents.....with heat!
So the adhesive is "re-wetting" from the solvents comi ng out of the vinyl.....and getting "slimy" and starting to FLOW.......and.....between the shrinking of the vinyl.....and the excessive pressure/tension down near the core.....it can pump the core right out.
BETTER electrical tape....even made with vinyl material......will use an ACRYLIC adhesive. But acrylic adhesive has less initial tackiness so it has to be used more carefully....and....eventually....acrylic based adhesives as they age....will become permanent and you will have a very hard time getting them off.
This page has a good comparison chart of the three main adhesive types used on electrical tapes and their pros and cons.
https://www.can-dotape.com/adhesive-tape-consultant/adhesives-used-for-tape/
Yes.....the tape manufacturing industry and the methods they use for toll coating are part of my industry.
Ray |
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56Cabrio Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2008 Posts: 1899 Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Explain this |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Abscate is pretty close. He got half of it! There are two items at play here. Get there in a minute.
About 90% of electrical tape made is vinyl. Vinyl is insidious crap .....but sometimes useful....crap. Some hugh end tapes like class H are made of fiberglass cloth.
I see people trying to use vinyl for things they want a permanent solution for.....and the fact they are using vinyl 100% guarantees its temporary.
Vinyl begins outgassing solvents ....and therefore shrinking ....and eventually hardening up when there are no more plasticizers to make it pliable.....the very minute its cast, molded or extruded. Long term parts like fender beading are made of vinyl....and therefore guaranteed to shrink and distort.
So....the two issues:
1. Its vinyl.....so it naturally shrinks.....and as abscate noted.....squeezes the roll and csn eventually pump out the core.
KEY TO REMEMBER: the plasticizers that are outgassed by vinyl.....are SOLVENTS....VOC's
2. The adhesive on basic, cheap vinyl electrical tapes are rubber based.....either natural or synthetic. The rubber is dissolved in a very low flash point, fast evaporating solvent like methylene chloride (low corrosive) or ethyl acetate (eventually will become corrosive).....and then roll or slot-die coated onto wide sheets of vinyl .....and dried in an explosion proof oven.....and then rolled up into one big wide roll (may be upwards to 144" wide).....and sliced into narrow rolls.
The problems this causes:
The problem is that as you roll materials like this.....as the roll grows in diameter....the roll tension needs to be reduced as you go. This is hard to control. The material near the inner core is under more tension.....which = more compression, twist and shear. So thats an initial problem.
The next big problem is that the rubber in the adhesive....readily absorbs and dissolves in solvent. And.....REMEMBER.....vinyl outgasses solvents. And....vinyl accelerates ots outgassing of solvents.....with heat!
So the adhesive is "re-wetting" from the solvents comi ng out of the vinyl.....and getting "slimy" and starting to FLOW.......and.....between the shrinking of the vinyl.....and the excessive pressure/tension down near the core.....it can pump the core right out.
BETTER electrical tape....even made with vinyl material......will use an ACRYLIC adhesive. But acrylic adhesive has less initial tackiness so it has to be used more carefully....and....eventually....acrylic based adhesives as they age....will become permanent and you will have a very hard time getting them off.
This page has a good comparison chart of the three main adhesive types used on electrical tapes and their pros and cons.
https://www.can-dotape.com/adhesive-tape-consultant/adhesives-used-for-tape/
Yes.....the tape manufacturing industry and the methods they use for toll coating are part of my industry.
Ray |
That's why we keep our roll stock in a humidity controlled room, we even keep some in a refrigerator so the adhesive doesn't seep out while being printed on. _________________ F#CK CANCER
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1963 Hard Top
RIP Dad 4/20/1951 - 2/4/2023 |
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