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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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 Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:17 pm Post subject: Glad I Checked |
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Been having some wonky radiator fan operation. So I thought to have a look at the radiator temp sensor. My first thought was that over time, corrosion builds up and creates resistance and heat, but the sensor terminals look clean. Either that or the fan is worn and is pulling too much current. I'll re-terminate these wires and test it. Maybe I can determine a current draw. I'm surprised a fuse didn't blow.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4772
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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i'll bet you a donut that your fan is starting to draw high current. it's in a constant barrage of water, abrasive road grime including salt, and has to move a high CFM. time to refurbish/replace. haven't refurbed one but disassembly and re-oiling the bushing can do wonders. you caught it in time.
the front heater fan does the same thing... start drawing more current as their bushing dry out and corrode.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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| As mentioned your problem is probably your bushings have dried out. If your bushing keeps your fan from running at its design speed the current will go up markedly and things start to corrode and/or melt from the prolonged heat from running with such a high amp draw. |
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jimf909 
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Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7466
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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You may also want to check the wiring at the fuse box. I had a small fire at the 30 amp fuse for the rad fan once after driving all day with the a/c on and the rad fan running on high.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=519615
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
More electrical resistance gives LESS amps flowing in a circuit. The problem with the early fuse panel is heat, from slight extra resistance at the fuse tip contact points. That contact heat builds up and can melt the plastic around the fuse holder and even the fuse panel cover. Cleaning the contacts of the fuse holder and putting in a new fuse may help. But the spring tension of the fuse holder can be damaged by the heat, particularly if the plastic melts and lets the contacts spread wider.
The case for motors is different. They can pull a lot of amps while trying to spin up to normal speed and if there is some mechanical reason why they can't fully spin up quickly then the duration of the higher amp flow can heat things in the wiring path up to the point of damage unless the fuse blows. That is also why increasing the fuse size on a motor circuit is unwise.
Mark
| rsxsr wrote: |
....... Either the wiring/ connectors have too much resistance causing the amp draw to go up,.........
........ or the fan is on it's way out and is drawing too much load. You should verify the amp load with an amp meter when it is running. ....... |
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- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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AZ Landshaper
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 1698
Location: The Old Pueblo
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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Man Ive had at least three fires in these vans. One was real bad. 1994 in a 1972 westy/ campmobile. The dash caught on fire in the raton pass at 1130 at night. I was stuck in raton for 3 days rewiring the thing with only phone line to work with.
God bless that rig. Was a refugee from a mexican junk yard. Had huge cattle guards welded to the front bumper like some of those bulli vans. Came from Novato to be exact. Cost me 500 bucks and I lived in it for 18 mos. A lot of great woman passed through that slider threshold. There was this one gal..man o man she was making dreams come true. LOL
Either way. Fire is destructive. Rewiring can be a real chore. I can see how the rad fan could draw crazy amps if it were to bind up or see some resistance.
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64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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Tested the fan system and both hi an lo speeds function.
The fan sounds pretty gravelly though, so I need to see about removing it to evaluate if it can be lubed or if I need a new motor.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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The fan blade is a LEFT thread..... righty loosey, lefty tighty.
The blade is just a slide press fit on the shaft, the special washer under the nut keeps things from slipping.
Work oil into the fan shaft end, prop it up so it is vertical, as you spin the motor, take you time, get it down in there.
Now flip it over, drill a 1/16” hole in the radiator side, there is a little bulge at the end of the shaft.
Work oil into that small hole you made as you spin the shaft.
Clean it off, put a dab of silicone or a piece of duct tape over the hole.
The fan will NOT spin freely, there is a drag but it should rotate freely and smoothly.
Put it back in..... fix the melted plug..... off you go!
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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shadetreemech
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Joined: October 05, 2005
Posts: 777
Location: Claremont, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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I'd check the ground tree on the Driver's side wall under the dash. That where that brown ground wire goes back to. Mine shorted out there, too.
Dan
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'01 Volvo V70 T5
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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| Igeo wrote: |
Tested the fan system and both hi an lo speeds function.
The fan sounds pretty gravelly though, so I need to see about removing it to evaluate if it can be lubed or if I need a new motor. |
Looking closely at image you show, it may be that the melt happened on the low speed circuit.
If you could find a spec here for typical current draw on low and high speed or if the motor shows specs, measure and compare your fans' current draw? This might help determine if fault lies at lack of lube or an electrical fault inside fan? That said, most VOM's have a 20 Amp current limit.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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So one thing led to another and an hour later it's out. Drop the spare tire hardware, disconnect the AC line hold downs, support the radiator with wood and jack, remove the lower radiator supports, drop it down and then remove the fan and shroud assembly. Not too bad a job.
The motor really sounds dry. Not sure if I can justify trying to lube it. I haven't looked at options for new ones.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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Dave, thanks for the heads up on the reverse thread.
New motors are $200. I'll try lubing the one I have, but as rough as this thing sounds.....
_________________
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4772
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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drill a small hole in the rear housing where the armature would spin... put some oil in thru said hole. hope for love.
might'n be able to oil the front bushing by slopping oil in between the fan and bushing with a Zoom oil spout. or just brute messy-ness.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6829
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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One question about these motors...
What are the two pipe/hose connections on the motor for?
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7466
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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| Steve M. wrote: |
One question about these motors...
What are the two pipe/hose connections on the motor for? |
Let's see what we come up with this time...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...652a9cdf2d
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6829
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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Ohhh...imagine that. 
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Glad I Checked |
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So in the end I ordered a new motor and fan, and of course re-terminated the connector. All works as it should without the scary noises.
The end plate is staked to the motor body, and with a dremel one can cut the folded bits off and open the motor up. It's a permanent magnet motor, and the inboard end (brushes end) of the armature is located with a bushing. Mine looked pretty good. The fan shaft end is located with a sealed bearing, and that's what was really dry and gravelly. The bearing does not appear to be replaceable without drilling out the plate that contains it.
I realize I could have lubed it as was suggested above, but the bearing was dry enough to have surely damaged it. A bit of oil would have bought some time, but it's all water under the bridge now.
Here is what we have:
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