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Syncro SVX clutch Problems
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WillSharp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:39 pm    Post subject: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

So Ive got a 89 syncro with a 97svx swap. (RMW adapter and flywheels)
Clutch was replaced about 30k ago with trans rebuild. Kennedy stage 1 Clutch installed. (This was before me owning it)

Recently I began experiencing chatter when engaging 1st gear, particularly when the engine and tranny were hot. This worsened into what I assumed to be clutch slippage which really just felt like flat acceleration usually when trying to accelerate or on an incline. I experienced this in all gears. Acceleration would noticeably flatten unless I backed off the pedal which usually caused it to go away. Definitely worse on hills. ( never smelled burning clutch tho)

Over the past week, the 1st gear chatter seemed to get better, however I experienced chatter right around 2000rpms in all gears, but especially 3rd. The chatter goes away at about 2200rpms noticeably. clutch engagement in general seemed to be jerky and just not normal. All of these things I assumed points to a clutch so I made plans to replace it.
Plus big svx motor, stage 1 clutch, doesn’t seem crazy it could have toasted a disk in 30k

I am living in my Syncro for the time being, so I ordered a Kennedy stage 2 clutch and their “racing disk” to a friends house and pulled the transmission in their driveway today to replace the clutch.

Got the SOB out and the disk looks fine! Held it up to the new disk and thickness looks the same, no obvious damage or burning. Mild burn smell but not crazy. Disk springs look ok.
The pressure plate has some heat marks, but nothing crazy. Same for the flywheel, minor heat coloration but felt very smooth to the touch.

(Real quick, yes I checked engine and transmission mounts for looseness first thing before diving into any of this.)

So I’m planning to try to get the flywheel machined tomorrow to eliminate warping as a possibility. Then I’ll install the new clutch and stage 2 pressure plate, but now I’m worried I’ve got deeper problems with the transmission?

Or perhaps the stage 1 pressure plate or disk is warped? Or some combination of all of them.

This really seems like a clutch problem but now I’m doubtful.
Any you wizards out there got any ideas?

Thanks

(See discussion on stage 2 clutches here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=752411&highlight=)
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Last edited by WillSharp on Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WillSharp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Kinda shotty pic of the flywheel coloration
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Once your foot is off the clutch pedal, it’s done operating. If you are experiencing chattering after your foot is off the pedal, that sounds like something else. A slipping clutch you have the rpms going up, but no acceleration. That’s not the symptoms you describe. Don’t like those spots on the flywheel surface. How does the pressure plate face look?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Took the flywheel to a machine shop this morning, they resurfaced it and said it was pretty warped so hopefully that was the problem!

Does anyone know what this black line on top of the trans is for?
The end was run up into the engine bay and just left open. Almost looks snipped.
Checked the Bentley but couldn’t find anything about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Make sure you read Marks post above. Clutch chatter or shudder is felt upon engagement. It can be caused by oil on the disk, a glazed disk from over-heating or worn/broken motor or trans mounts. You describe symptoms more related to an engine running issue.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Clutch chatter can happen anytime a clutch is slipping. If the clutch is compromised and cannot hold against the torque, it can slip.

WillSharp can you clarify “Flat acceleration”?
If the clutch is slipping the RPMs will increase “without” a an accompanying “road speed” increase.

Mine has those black plastic tubes too. I don’t know what they are.
I suspect they are related to the fuel vent emissions system. Someone who’s had their tank “out” might know.

Did you inspect the damper springs on the clutch plate (for broken springs)?
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Last edited by Sodo on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

There are 2 black plastic tubes that go into the chassis above the engine. Trans vent and bellhousing vent. I know what clutch chatter and slipping are. The description may be loosing something in translation.

I hope the machine shop machined the disc surface and the pressure plate mounting surface equal amounts. Otherwise your going to have problems.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

That black tube is the atmospheric vent for the transmission. The front diff has one as well.

Keep them high and dry (like above the gas tank or in the engine compartment above the intake) so water doesn't flow into the trans or diff in water crossings.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

OP:
Can you post pictures of the clutch discs and pressure plates?
Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

If the clutch is slipping the RPMs will increase “without” a an accompanying “road speed” increase.


this

and usually easiest to detect in higher gears - floor at highway speed in top gear and see if you just get a ton of revs without any speedo movement.
i guess you could describe that as "flat" acceleration but its usually really obvious staring at the gauges as well.

jerky clutch engagement, and your symptoms being noticeable in 1st/lower gears makes it sound like a physical issue other than slip - though you must have heat loaded the bejesus out of that flywheel to warp it. but maybe theres more than one thing going wrong.

how are all the straps on the pressure plate? the fingers can still look good but if the straps along the sides are toast it wont engage properly.
as sodo mentioned the clutch springs could give you headaches as well.

back in my fwd big turbo days the first thing id do to try and cure slipping clutches was find the softest closest to stock clutch i could (no 3 puck, 6 puck, etc if at all possible, always sprung hubs, etc) and put on the beefiest pressure plate i could manage. that way the engagement feel is nice due a full discs's worth of to close-to-stock friction material, but once clamped it will hold together stronger.
something to consider, if thats really your problem - look to upgrade the PP to stage "whatever" before throwing a beefier clutch in.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Clutch chatter can happen anytime a clutch is slipping. If the clutch is compromised and cannot hold against the torque, it can slip.

WillSharp can you clarify “Flat acceleration”?
If the clutch is slipping the RPMs will increase “without” a an accompanying “road speed” increase.

Mine has those black plastic tubes too. I don’t know what they are.
I suspect they are related to the fuel vent emissions system. Someone who’s had their tank “out” might know.

Did you inspect the damper springs on the clutch plate (for broken springs)?


The chatter I assumed to be slipping like Sodo suggested.

Sorry I may not have done a great job describing it.
The flat acceleration was an rpm increase without any speed increase only under load (hill or acceleration on flat surface) it wouldn’t happen for very long because I would usually back of the pedal as soon as I felt it.


Here’s pics of the old disk and plate.
If the flywheel was warped I can only assume the pressure plate is warped too.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I’ve almost go everything back together with a new disk and stage 2 pressure Plate. Will see How it runs shortly
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:


I hope the machine shop machined the disc surface and the pressure plate mounting surface equal amounts. Otherwise your going to have problems.


If reusing the old PP? Or for a new one as well? Can’t see how it would affect it if using new? I showed the machinists my pressure plates and he said nothing about it.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

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I'd asked if the machine shop machined the surface where the pressure plate bolts to the flywheel. They would have had to remove the dowels. If they only machined the disc contact surface, you will end up with less clamping force when assembled.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Your clutch performance sounds eerily similar to mine. (I wrote this above^^)
I had a Kennedy stage 1 and it "seemed" like it was just barely able to push the van.
I thought any moment it the revs might climb.
This was ever since "new".
Smallcar said they had been getting indications that the Stage I that they installed on my van was 'on the edge' and recommended Stage II.
I also thought that Smallcar should have at least given me a stage II at "their cost" as the Stage I only had 25k miles.
25k doubtful miles.
But anyway, they were real mum and I paid full pop for the stage II pressure plate and the 'young' 25k Stage I pressure plate went to the steel recycler.
Anyway all good now with the Stage II.

Probably can tell by looking if they machined both surfaces.
Seeing as you are chasing down clutch problems, you should verify the depth.
I don't know what it is, but Kennedy clutch folks would be the BEST to ask for optimum depth for their aftermarket pressure plate.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here is somebody's pic. from a thread called flywheel specs?
If it was too deep before, and the machine shop copied 'too deep' again, then your problem will remain.

I would not re-use a friction disc that was on a flywheel that "needed resurfacing."
Especially upon chasing down a "clutch slip problem".
I'd get Kennedy's depth spec....
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

To a small degree, you can cheat the clamping force by machining a few extra .001 more on the mounting surface. Your results may vary.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Its a Belleville spring which will get softer if you cheat it (at some point). Then harder again as the disc wears thinner.
Best to get a new disk and ask Kennedy for the optimum depth.

I bet Kennedy optimized their pressure plate for max clutch pressure for the disc lifetime under the VW spec.
Kennedy would have the absolute best answer WRT any muckin’ around for optimum.

But the thing to remember is you ain’t racin’.
Be careful with race tips.
You don’t need max launch.
Race season placement is not the goal.
Nor a race to MrGas Rebuilds.😉
If you ask them tell them you want longevity in gentle use.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

This is all very helpful, thanks for the responses

So I got the transmission back in, with the new PP and disk. (no small task by myself in a buddies driveway)

Took it for some quick test drives, felt good, the clutch is very grabby and tight (in a good way) so I took off on a 4hr drive back up to yosemite where I'm living for the spring.

The chatter and slippage I was experiencing in 1st, 2nd, and 4th gear seem to be gone, so I think new parts did fix something, however my 3rd gear still chatters right at 2k rpms, Really only under a lot of load (hills). Flat or down, i don't notice it. It seems very specific to 3rd gear now, I haven't been able to recreate the same chatter at similar RPMs in other gears, so maybe its a gear problem?

I do not believe that the machine shop resurfaced the upper edge of the flywheel. only the inner contact surface, so I really hope that doesn't become a problem. I already had the trans back in the car by the time Ward360 brought that up, so without pulling it again I will not know.

At this point though, I beginning to think i might have a few thing going and the clutch was just one part of it.

I spoke to Greg at MR. Gas again, he said it could be a chipped 3rd gear, but wasn't super likely. Hard to say.

Im less worried about it now knowing I I've got a new disk in there that's not burnt up and ready to break apart, but I would like to smooth out 3rd gear.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Gears are actually pairs. One gear is fixed on splines, it’s mate floats on needle
bearings. The difference in tooth count of a gear set is the ratio. At any given time, all gear sets are meshing constantly. Selecting a gear fixes the floating gear and you have that ratio.

My experience is most gear sets have 3 gear teeth meshing. It’s unlikely you’d notice one missing tooth. So, if you are feeling something in third gear, it’s probably missing more teeth if that’s what you are feeling. I don’t think chatter would describe it. If you are missing a couple teeth, you’ll likely shed another and at that point, you’d loose that gear.

Everything on a syncro is more difficult including r and r the transaxle. Hopefully you’ve got something else going on. Check the magnet when you have time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Did you reinstall the transmission already? The stage two pressure plate can break the fingers that hold the throw out bearing. If we use a heavier pressure plate, we add some weld to the fingers.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro SVX clutch Problems Reply with quote

Rocky Mountain Westy wrote:
Did you reinstall the transmission already? The stage two pressure plate can break the fingers that hold the throw out bearing. If we use a heavier pressure plate, we add some weld to the fingers.


Yup trannys back in, hopefully that won't happen. Got that to look forward to if it does...

I believe I have resolved the problems.
The new clutch eliminated the bad chatter I had releasing into first gear (probably the warped flywheel I'm guessing).

The "flat" acceleration i was assuming to be clutch slippage (but didn't go away with the new clutch) I think was actually was actually just a dirty MAF sensor! Brick wall
I had cleaned it a few months ago, but since replaced the air filter which maybe had some residual oil from the manufacture? (its the OG subie air filter, non-oiled). Anyway I hit it with some MAF cleaner the other day, just cause why not, and the acceleration got noticeably better and the "flat" spots disappeared! Live and you learn...

Im still getting some minor mystery vibration in 3rd gear at 2k rpms but that seems to have diminished from what it was. Maybe a fuel thing? Waiting to see if it gets worse.
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