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Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!!
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Stewart2.0
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:43 am    Post subject: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

If you are toying with doing an engine swap but would really like to keep your power plant a true VW Water Boxer there is an option. I recently upgraded from a completely new Digijet system to the Holley Terminator X Universal EFI. Even though I had replaced the entire Digijet system with all new or rebuilt components I continued to have challenges.

The ECU, engine harness, airflow meter, cold start valve, power steering idle boost, idle control box, stock 02 sensor, ignition module all got removed. I retained my Marco Mansi Fuel injectors.

I needed to add a throttle position sensor to my stock throttle body and installed a crank trigger on my main pulley and an updated distributor. The Holley Kit comes with a new modern bosch multi-wire 02 sensor, integrated MAP sensor which easily connected to the vacuum port.

The shop I used is based just outside of Philadelphia.

I can say that while I am not setting new 1/4 mile times at a track, I smile a lot more since the van starts and idles well, has much better response to the throttle and climbs better. All while keeping the soul of the van at less than 1/2 the cost of a engine swap.

I would like to thank Marco Mansi and Mario at The Dub Shop for their solutions that were part of this project.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_...ts/550-936

https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_boxes/street/parts/6415

http://thedubshop.com/crank-trigger-package-wasser-oxy-boxer/

https://orelandautoservice.com/

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

What function does the distributor perform now that you've gone to a crank sensor? I'm not familiar with the Holley kit, but what is it doing for spark? Individual coils, HEI type? Does the system auto tune?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Really cool! Can we see more?
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Stewart2.0
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Individual Coil, I have a 2.1 distributor connected via the HEI input, the distributor was adapted by removing all but the TDC "teeth". The system auto learns and applies the learnings to the Fuel table. I am using the VE based fuel table in the Holley software. The system compensates the injector pulse based on a variety of inputs to ensure a proper warm up. It even controls my A/C cutout when the throttle position is more than 80%. It is a nice way to upgrade the brains.

I will take more photos of the the components and post them over the weekend.


Last edited by Stewart2.0 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

right on!
curious how you chose the holley - or was it a setup youre familiar with from other projects?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

You lost me a little on the ignition. So, you are using the distributor to deliver the spark to the plugs? So one coil? When I asked about individual coils, I was referring to one coil per cylinder. Or the HEI that has to cylinders per coil.

A few more details would be helpful. Seems the only reason to maintain the distributor would be if you were configuring sequential injection vs phased.
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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:

A few more details would be helpful. Seems the only reason to maintain the distributor would be if you were configuring sequential injection vs phased.


the other advantage is maintaining all of the stock ignition hardware to simplify the swap.
theres no correlation with sequential injection and a distributor for spark. the two arent related - in fact id argue if you were bothering with the expense and complexity of sequential, you should be bothering with individual coil packs as well.

im mostly familiar with MS - but you can use a trigger wheel to essentially mimic the work of the windows in the distributor.
at the end of the day it still fires the single coil whenever the proper tooth comes by, and the distributor pipes it down the proper plug wire.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Well that was why I was wondering why it had both an added crank sensor and still utilizing the distributor. Seems the crank sensor should handle both spark and fuel.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Seems a lot of guys are going Holley. Even the older bus's !!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=751894

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/adapting_a_sniper...e=hs_email
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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Well that was why I was wondering why it had both an added crank sensor and still utilizing the distributor. Seems the crank sensor should handle both spark and fuel.


the crank sensor is just the input method though. its unrelated to how the spark gets to the cylinder.

one could choose to keep all the stock stuff for cost concerns, even though the crank sensor as an input method would be capable of supporting any combo of spark hardware (though youd need a cam sensor as well to do full sequential and true COP)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

It was a suggestion from Steve at Oreland Auto. I started to look into what I would need to adapt it from Digijet and knew I had the pieces to the puzzle. My wife and I do use the camper from April to November each year. A representative of Holley actually worked with him on the project as they have never had anyone to their knowledge use their Terminator X on a Vanagon. He said he really enjoyed working on it and that he discussed the project on their weekly management call. The universal harness they supplied has a ton of extra wires that were not needed. If this becomes a "thing" I am sure KYLE Automotive Specialties in Ohio could build a specific harness that would help make it more plug and play.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

If the Holley system is self learning. That is a big step forward for those that don't tune standalone systems for a living.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
If the Holley system is self learning. That is a big step forward for those that don't tune standalone systems for a living.


for what its worth, this is a fairly common feature now in the standalone space

having good afr targets for it to learn toward is key, and youd need that regardless of the system


can you share some more pictures of the harness and the TPS adaptation?

does it require the TPS?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

That's awesome. I'm sure it drives a lot better now as well.

I've never had a lot of luck with Megasquirt's self tuning functionality, but it's not too hard to adjust manually. Did you add a wideband o2 sensor for the Holley self tuning functionality?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

there are remote throttle position sensors available, could make things much easier to adapt to the Vanagon engine.

https://www.tciauto.com/electronics/transmission-control-unit/remote-throttle-position-sensor.html
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Yes, I will post more photos soon. I am away from the van for a few days.
I wanted to eliminate the Bosch Air Meter as it had been a source of many of my challenges, I got a rebuilt one that had a bad track and assumed it was working. I had Phil Eslin rebuild me stock throttle body (he is / was here on the Samba) and when I started this project I sent it back to him and he installed the TPS on the bottom of the Throttle body. It is a 5V BMW TPS sensor that I can get at any dealership. The Holley rep actually tuned it but it keeps learning as I drive. I am not sure you need the TPS but you need a way to estimate the volume of air entering the engine.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

That's probably an e36 TPS. Very common when switching to aftermarket engine management. I use them on my e30s!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Stewart2.0 wrote:
I am not sure you need the TPS but you need a way to estimate the volume of air entering the engine.


would be interesting to see if they've got options to run without that for their accel enrichments.
may make the setup even more bolt-on for folks not wanting to add additional sensors
accel enrichment calculation can in theory be done on a few different rate-of-change values.

you should be able to capture all your incoming air with a MAP sensor, IAT, and engine speed reading (this is speed-density)
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Last edited by valvecovergasket on Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

Photos of Phil Eslin's work to install the TPS - I had a goal to hide as much of the new sensors as possible to maintain a stock VW look.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Holley Terminator X EFI - it works!!!!! Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires wrote:

I've never had a lot of luck with Megasquirt's self tuning functionality, but it's not too hard to adjust manually. Did you add a wideband o2 sensor for the Holley self tuning functionality?


i think he mentioned a new wideband o2 in the earlier post if i understood that correctly


like all the other auto tune stuff, it can be a matter of garbage in garbage out. it needs proper AFR targets to be useful otherwise youre tuning toward an unusable map. and you need to be mindful of which portion of the map youre focusing on, and bound the adaptation appropriately.

i also find its useful to hand jam a table in there thats close, use that to figure out where your AFR targets should be and adjust the target table. let autotune make some of the larger initial adjustments. go back and handjam it smooth based on the directional changes of that autotune session. then let autotune make some more fine adjustments, more slowly, on a longer drive.


we should be clear when we're talking about "self learning" as well - ive seen this mixed up on another forum im on where v8 swaps are popular and folks use some of the really simple TBI bolt on fuel injection systems.
ive seen the term "self learning" used when what they really mean is closed loop operation.
the learning component would refer to writing the adaptation back to memory and making permanent changes to the fuel map

closed loop o2 control is just trimming the fuel in that moment without making permanent changes to the map. and most systems have numerous ways you can create bounds for the operation of that closed loop system


/pendantic
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