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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension **Solved** |
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This is driving me crazy. I can't figure out where it is coming from.
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This doesn't do it justice. It's much louder when you're driving. My son said "Sounds like something is about to break" when we were riding together right after I got it back.
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Background: It was totally quiet (for a Vanagon) when I drove it this spring. I had it in the shop getting the brakes inspected before an upcoming trip. While at the shop universal joint in the shift linkage broke (I posted about that in the 5speedbus thread). They replaced that and did the inspection. I got it back and now I have a squeak / creaking noise and it is really unpleasant to listen to while driving, especially since I've been working to eliminate noises like this. The shop says it might be because it was up on a lift for a while and suspension was in full "sag" and the bushings just need to settle back in? It's been about 3 weeks and might be getting worse. Certainly isn't getting better.
I'm guessing (totally guessing) it is upper control arm bushing related, but I put the GoWesty delirin AF UCA bushings in 3 years ago (along with replacing all of the other front end bushings) and haven't had a squeak from the front suspension since. I'm really hoping the "Do it right the first time, and never think about it again!" from GoWesty wasn't a joke and really means 3 years.
If anyone has any insight into what is making this noise and/or how to identify where the noise is coming from, I would greatly appreciate it.
2WD '85 Westy
T3 HD anti-sway bar and HD end links
GoWesty zero lift springs
Konis
3 year old GoWesty UCA delrin AF bushings
3 year old VW bushings in rest of front suspension _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit
Last edited by Crooked Designer on Fri May 14, 2021 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Squidfish Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2004 Posts: 336 Location: 95519
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Sounds like UCA's to me Sorry to hear the parts didn't hold up. _________________ 1985.5 - Vanagon Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg Edition - LH8U - "Penny"
- 2.6i 5-Cylinder 10v (2004) |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 673
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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UCA to my ears as well
T _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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ughhh... This is what I was afraid of..
I'll go jump on it with the camera pointed at the UCA bushing and see if that makes it louder. Not sure how I would be able to tell.
If this is it, I'm guessing replacing these (again) is the only solve? Any chance lubrication would do it? I have some left over bushing lube from T3. From what I understand about these bushings from reading previous threads about UCAs, the squeak is friction internally, so not sure this is an option.
I also thought the point of the Delrin AF was that it didn't need lube, but I'm really hoping to solve this noise without replacing those bushings.
Anyone know why this would happen after being on a lift? I'm assuming that has something to do with it. _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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Igeo Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018 Posts: 888 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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You could confirm the UCA bushings as a source by spritzing some kind of penetrating oil on them one at a time between test drives. Can't hurt and it will help you narrow it down. _________________ 1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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valvecovergasket Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018 Posts: 1492 Location: pnw
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Crooked Designer wrote: |
ughhh... This is what I was afraid of..
I'll go jump on it with the camera pointed at the UCA bushing and see if that makes it louder. Not sure how I would be able to tell.. |
stick your ear up against a couple feet of vacuum hose, point the other end of the hose up near where you think the noise is coming from. itll be pretty obvious when you find the source, itll be much much louder! _________________ MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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It's likely not the sound, but the top coils of your spring appear to be touching each other. Even with stock bushings, some spray lube may get you some peace. That the suspension was drooped is a good explanation.
With poly bushings, it should not matter, but with stock bushings, you want to torque the bolt with the suspension loaded. Installing poly bushings, you really need to pay attention to the gap between the camber washer and the poly bushing assembly.
The last ones I did for an owner required me to slightly shorten the bushing and the sleeve, so that when the arm moved it floated on the sleeve only. _________________ ☮️ |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Thanks for the replies
valvecovergasket wrote: |
stick your ear up against a couple feet of vacuum hose |
Might try this this afternoon
Igeo wrote: |
You could confirm the UCA bushings as a source by spritzing some kind of penetrating oil on them one at a time between test drives. Can't hurt and it will help you narrow it down. |
penetrating oil would be ok for the GW Delrin AF bushings? Don't want to solve a now problem by making things worse later.
MarkWard wrote: |
It's likely not the sound, but the top coils of your spring appear to be touching each other. Even with stock bushings, some spray lube may get you some peace. That the suspension was drooped is a good explanation.
With poly bushings, it should not matter, but with stock bushings, you want to torque the bolt with the suspension loaded. Installing poly bushings, you really need to pay attention to the gap between the camber washer and the poly bushing assembly.
The last ones I did for an owner required me to slightly shorten the bushing and the sleeve, so that when the arm moved it floated on the sleeve only. |
These are all stock bushings with the exception of the GW UCA's. Spring coils are not actually touching, just a weird angle on the video. Also, suspension isn't lowered. The odd part to me is that this was making no noise at all before it went up on the lift and now sounds like a creaky wooden ship when I drive it.
If lube, where and what kind of lubricant?
Also, not entirely sure what you mean by shortening the bushing sleeve, but this wouldn't be the problem if it made zero noise for the past 3 years, correct? _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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Igeo Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018 Posts: 888 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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As for lube, if it were mine, I'd use what I had on hand. You won't be using it regularly (well you might), but only as a test. One time won't hurt anythng. _________________ 1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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There should be no reason for the poly bushing to make noise if it was properly assembled and lubed. If the gap were not correct at the time of install the bushing could be binding, not floating as designed. It was probably not noticed in the beginning because there was plenty of lube and whoever aligned it, torqued the bolt with the suspension loaded.
When it was on the lift, the suspension drooped the full amount placing the bushings into a spot where they had not been riding. When the load was back, the bushing may have left some lube behind.
That said. When properly assembled everything should pivot around the sleeve. The poly should only kiss the camber washer and the retaining washer on the outside. The directions from T3 go into quite a bit of detail regarding the gap. The stamped arms will deflect if you get the clearance wrong, but the bushings will be binding which they were not intended to do. _________________ ☮️ |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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MarkWard wrote: |
When it was on the lift, the suspension drooped the full amount placing the bushings into a spot where they had not been riding. When the load was back, the bushing may have left some lube behind.
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I'm hoping this means they can be lubed again and that will put us back to where we were pre-lift. or is that not correct?
Also, just so I'm sure we're talking about the Delrin AF UCA bushings? I was under the impression that those were 'self-lubricating'.. or are you talking about bushings in general and the noise might be coming from elsewhere.. _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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gbrandt Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 578 Location: Calgary
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Guaranteed upper control arm bushings are shot. I had this exact noise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAD31tgWJpY&feature=youtu.be
Took us forever to figure it out. _________________ 'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Maybe remove the front shock on the noisy side and see what effect that has. It too might have been somehow effected at full droop. |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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That sound sounds very similar. _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Spraying some lube will only temporarily quiet it. The suggestion was more a troubleshooting method to isolate or pin point the noise.
Unfortunately to properly lube the poly bushings, you'd need to remove the upper control arm bolt with the lower suspension supported and you might be able remove the bushings and get some bearing snot from T3 and reassemble. If you mark the camber bushings, the alignment will be close.
Personally I'd remove the arm and work on the bench. The t3 poly bushings recommend tack welding the inner sleeve to ensure it doesn't move. The last set I did, I followed the directions and tack welded the sleeves. You'd also want to verify the gap I mentioned above. Its easier to measure that gap without the bushings all lubed up. If there is too much gap, you'll need thicker camber washers also available from T3. I found the last set to be too tight even with the thinnest camber washers. That required me to get a little innovative with the inner sleeve and bushing length. _________________ ☮️ |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 12007 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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The second video shows the noise happening only when the UCA moves. You can see that it sticks and doesn't want to pivot. |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Spraying some lube will only temporarily quiet it. The suggestion was more a troubleshooting method to isolate or pin point the noise.
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Good to know. I don't have that much experience with cars mechanically, so I typically let my shop handle things related to engine/trans, brakes, and suspension so I don't inadvertently break anything critical. Trying to get on their calendar now. Not sure if you saw the part of the post before on these being the GW Delrin AF UCA bushings. I see you mentioning the T3 poly bushings, but does your advice remain the same for the GoWesty bushings?
syncrodoka wrote: |
The second video shows the noise happening only when the UCA moves. You can see that it sticks and doesn't want to pivot. |
I had not noticed that, but it does seem to be moving slower than the other parts. _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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Those are the bushings. Good to see the documentation says "do not lube".
Again, these have been totally fine for the past 3 years without making a peep. After having the van up on the lift at the shop it started making noise. I've had it up on a lift several times since installing these bushings without this problem occurring. I have no idea why they started making noise this time. _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 323 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Identifying a creaking noise in front suspension |
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The noise was coming from the upper joint on the HD end links. I installed these at the end of last summer and they've been fine until now. My best guess is that the suspension in full sag while on the lift in the shop was the cause.
I've talked with Christopher at T3 and we're getting it sorted out after my trip. Thanks everyone for all the help on this.
_________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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