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Longy
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Whats about this one? More affordable then BAS masterpiece...
Has somebody tested yet?
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/exhaust-heating/csp-high-flow-exhaust-251-001-030hf-30494a.html
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Sure, many times. but you cannot compare it to a BAS Customsport or a SS143. Two different segments.
That CSP can roughly be compared to the hot dog muffler performance wise. It is good for 90ish hp (Done that on a mild 1776) More than that and the back pressure begins to increase more than good is.
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Longy
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Tnx Alstrup... always very informative answers from you ..
I was wondering if there any sense to change the stock one with that CSP for my well running stockist 1600 SP beside of electronic ignition...
Especially, if I decide to change pistons rings and bring down DH to match CR 8:1
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richparker
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Personally, I really like the VS exhaust system. I’m currently running the Classic Sport on the 2275cc in my ‘71 Westy. My build is mild with 8.13:1 compression, CNC ported 044 heads and a Engle 110 cam. It’s built to push around a bus, not to drag and it’s power ban is nicely matched with the R&P of the stock ‘71 002 transaxle. I live on southwest Colorado and this combo works well while climbing the many hills and mountain passes in this area.

I’m sure I’d get a few more HP with a merged system, I have used them for years in the past. But, what the VS lacks in HP performance it makes up for in styling and sound. The VS tucks nicely under the apron, the pipe exits out the apron cut out and it lays nicely just under the bumper. While a merged system sticks out like a sore thumb. The sound of the VS is throaty while not putting out too many DB. We’ve found it’s much easier to keep a conversation without yelling with the VS compared to the merged systems we were running in the past.

I’m not saying the VS is better then a scavenging system, but it is certainly nice and I feel the pros out way the cons.

Here’s a recent pic I took of the rear of my bus right after I installed a Jemeryrockjock hitch (which is a top notch product too!). All you see is the tail pipe.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Longy wrote:
Tnx Alstrup... always very informative answers from you ..
I was wondering if there any sense to change the stock one with that CSP for my well running stockist 1600 SP beside of electronic ignition...
Especially, if I decide to change pistons rings and bring down DH to match CR 8:1

Ahh, well, yes, a little, It will at least lower the head temps some when your on the freeway and give you a tad more rpm power.
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Longy
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Then, beside of BAS exhaust ( 1100€), what would be good replacement performance wise for stock or mild 1600 SP here in Europe; stockist look (pea shooters) with central carb preheating?
TT has a nice one similar to BAS but very pricey and in UK...
Tnx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Longy wrote:
Whats about this one? More affordable then BAS masterpiece...
Has somebody tested yet?
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/exhaust-heating/csp-high-flow-exhaust-251-001-030hf-30494a.html

I have that one. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=753607&highlight=
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dgsaz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

While we are talking about exhaust systems........

Would you expect a change in exhaust, from a 4/1 to a VS muffler set up, to require a change in carburetor jetting.

While we're at it, I was looking at some Knetch style air cleaners for the 912 and read that a change in carb jetting would be needed. Grain of salt?

dgsaz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Quote:
Knetch style

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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
If you really dive into it, it is not that simple.
- Yes, a 4-1 header will generally always pull better peak hp numbers.
- No, a 4-1 header will not always pull better ABP numbers. (Average Power Band)
- A VS muffler, - and especially the newer SS143 version will almost always pull better lower rpm torque numbers, and sometimes even better APB numbers (As long as we are not talking cam durations over approx 250 @ 0,050")
- With a VS muffler it will almost always be easier to avoid the dreaded afr/power drop in the 2800-3500 rpm range (spot dependant on cam)
- 2-1 buggy headers (Bazooka´s) are generally surprisingly "ok" for upper rpm hp up to around 5500 rpm peaks, but absolutely terrible for torque. The torque suffers 10 - up to about 20% compared to a decent 4-1.
- The best of both worlds would be a 4-2-1 header, but that´s not easily doable on a type 1 engine since the primaries will be too long most of the time. With milder cams it - is - possible to find a length around 20-22" where the extraction works, but the secondaries have to be just right, or it will be counterproductive somewhere in the powerband. Most often in the 4800 to 5800 rpm area dependant on the cam duration and actual pipe lengths.

For instance. I´ve seen a customer´s 1914 with 40/35 mm valves in cylinder heads, W125, 44 IDF´s etc,- and a VS sport muffler. That engine absolutely would not pull more than 117 hp and had a wonky power curve because the exhaust was all wrong for the engine.
That very same engine pulls 127 hp with a 1½" Python.

I later built a 1776 with a Web 218/119 cam, ported stock valve heads, dual 36 Dells, etc. 1½" heater boxes, that very same VS muffler (Its actually in the engine combo thread) This cam is basicly 18 degrees milder @ 0,050" This engine pulls 120 hp and has a very nice power curve,,, ohh, and 177-180 Nm torque too.

You gotta hit the sweet spot the parts are made for Wink

Hope this helps.
T


thank for posting this Alstrup. many people dont know of tuned headers or tri y systems. or the differences between them. or what makes them work.

i was introduced to the tri y when i heard a set on a small block ford. sounded so good... ive yet to hear one on a vdub tho.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Alright.
Here is a comparison between a 4 into 1 header and a shorty header on a known engine. This is a 1776 w. a post 2021 CB 2239 cam, AA500 heads w. 37,5 x 33 mm valves, 9,1 CR. dual 36 IDF w. 28/32 mm power venturies and a copy A1 1½" sidewinder. The power curve resembles real life within 1 hp peak. The actual curve is a little different too. But good enough for comparison
Red & turquise lines are the A1 copy header.
Blue & green lines are a 1½" shorty header.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

As you can see anything below approx 3800 rpm and the shorty header is better anything above approx 3800 rpm and the shorty header looses.
IRL the upper power differences between the two would be much less, but only to visualize the strongsides of the shorty header and why I often recommend these types of mufflers for especially busses.

Now, before everybody comes running with "my engine does "this", I will say that there are of course variations over the subject, because if you had installed a 1 3/8" header with a decent muffler on this here engine you would have seen a behaviure much closer to the shorty header because you would be at the limit of what that header would handle and the simple calculation of displacement X header size x header length = torque then plays a more dominant role.
In fact here is such a simulation
Here the 1 3/8" header with a phat boy muffler are the blue & green lines.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

See. but the shorty header is still better down low.

I have not done anything with a 4-2-1 header because from a practical view it is not a usable way to go for the average VW type 1 builder. A type 4 is different. There you can make a nice 4-2-1 header
finally. The more cam duration you have the larger the difference will be between the two. As I touched earlier, a shorty header works well on engines that have peak power below approx 5500 rpm which generally means that cams up to the range of 240 to 248 degrees @ 0,050" are suitable.
Hope this helps.
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Last edited by Alstrup on Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

dgsaz wrote:
While we are talking about exhaust systems........

Would you expect a change in exhaust, from a 4/1 to a VS muffler set up, to require a change in carburetor jetting.
Yes
While we're at it, I was looking at some Knetch style air cleaners for the 912 and read that a change in carb jetting would be needed. Grain of salt?
Depends on the carbs below. If Weber or Solex Pll´s, most likely. If Dellorto´s you may still be spot on.

dgsaz

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Jason37
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Alright.
Here is a comparison between a 4 into 1 header and a shorty header on a known engine. This is a 1776 w. a post 2021 CB 2239 cam, AA500 heads w. 37,5 x 33 mm valves, 9,1 CR. dual 36 IDF w. 28/32 mm power venturies and a copy A1 1½" sidewinder. The power curve resembles real life within 1 hp peak. The actual curve is a little different too. But good enough for comparison
Red & turquise lines are the A1 copy header.
Blue & green lines are a 1½" shorty header.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

As you can see anything below approx 3800 rpm and the shorty header is better anything above approx 3800 rpm and the shorty header looses.
IRL the upper power differences between the two would be much less, but only to visualize the strongsides of the shorty header and why I often recommend these types of mufflers for especially busses.

Now, before everybody comes running with "my engine does "this", I will say that there are of course variations over the subject, because if you had installed a 1 3/8" header with a decent muffler on this here engine you would have seen a behaviure much closer to the shorty header because you would be at the limit of what that header would handle and the simple calculation of displacement X header size x header length = torque then plays a more dominant role.
In fact here is such a simulation
Here the 1 3/8" header with a phat boy muffler are the blue & green lines.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

See. but the shorty header is still better down low.

I have not done anything with a 4-2-1 header because from a practical view it is not a usable way to go for the average VW type 1 builder. A type 4 is different. There you can make a nice 4-2-1 header
finally. The more cam duration you have the larger the difference will be between the two. As I touched earlier, a shorty header works well on engines that have peak power below approx 5500 rpm which generally means that cams up to the range of 240 to 248 degrees @ 0,050" are suitable.
Hope this helps.



This fantastic info, and I feel like an idiot for asking, but what does the shorty header look like? Being a type 3 guy our exhaust combos are extremely limited. I have an older type 3 Thunderbird with a small glass pack on it, that I plan on using on a mild 1800 SP. The other option would be to go to a VS, or the CSP.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/38MM-SUPER-SPORT-EL-SS143-EXHAUST-SYSTEMS-BUG-50-35-p132830340

http://www.ttexhausts.com/vw-beetle-exhaust/

https://www.ahnendorp.com/VW-Kaefer-Typ-1-Motorent...uff-1.html

I am affraid that a shorty header for a type 3 would have to be custom built, eventhough that vehicle could make very good use of such a muffler system.
Turbo Thomas could do that. Maybe you can convince MT @ VS to do a type 3 version of the SS143 , but I expect the market to be limited.

The main problem on an 1800 SP would be the carburetion and/or air cleaner. But that´s for another thread if you want to discuss that.
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

https://www.csp-shop.com/en/brand-shops/python-exhaust-system-251-303-038-23835a.html

So something like this?

This is the system I have.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As for carbs and air cleaner I have a couple options, but will start a build thread.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

I have never seen such a header before. Is it a semi 4-2-1, or how is it assembled down at the collector?
The CSP Python is a nice system, but maybe a little overkill for an 1800 SP engine.
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

My apologies, not a thunderbird, it was made by Cyclone.

Pics


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And agreed on the CSP. I ran this for about a month on my 69 notch 20 years ago, so I can’t tell you anything about it.
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dgsaz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Question on exhaust systems. Reply with quote

Vintage Speed has two performance levels of their mufflers. Sport and Super Flow. Sport for engines up to 125 HP and Super Flow becomes restrictive at 150 HP.

What is the effect of running the Super Flow on a 90 HP engine instead of the Sport model. I've seen examples where HP was lost by going to a 4/1 that is too large for the rest of the engine.

Can I assume the sizing in mufflers would do the same/similar?

dgsaz
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