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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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Yes I have searched and not just this year!
Looking for first hand Accounts!
The with a twist part is can someone CREDIBLE confirm or deny that the H5 specific case is or is not california/emissions specific issue? (lean or running hot fatigue ect issue)
As I am in Canada and i have heard rumor that the H5 is more like the H0 in its material integrity, is this true?
I see alot of ambiguous information when I search.... a friend a buddy yada yada..... and then first hand accounts of guys such as rock crusher or crusher who states to send him all your H5 cases and he will run em on the drag strip.
to repeat..... no do not say "run one and find out the hard way".... first hand experience only.... un knowledgeable repeaters need not post!
btw this is coming from a practical mindset of at this point in Canada with the FACT that these cars are 99% of time used as 6-2 month a year hobby cars that 20,000 miles may look like 15-30 years of use.
I have a H5 with 85.5 jugs otherwise stock with tight endplay that that I would guess was rebuilt under 15-20 k ago... |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3685 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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Stock, in a bug or ghia you'll be fine. I had a H5 case in my 68 beetle back in high school, used to drive it across the state (300 miles each way, with a serious mt pass) never an issue. Put same engine in my 59 panel with reduction box, drove it another 5 years, was still running fine when I sold it. I would not build a HP engine with one (small oil galleys), but a stock engine is fine, I would install case savers if doing a full tear down _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 679
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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First hand experience. I'm rebuilding my H5 motor for the second time in 190k miles. On the first rebuild at 70k I had a shop deep stud 3, case savers on the rest, a line bore and new Cofap 85.5's. I'm doing the second rebuild now and the 1 and 3 saddles were perfect. I had the second line bore done anyway last week because I could see the faint bearing markings and the bearing crush was just o.k. on the #2 saddle. A snap gauge showed it at +.003; right at the wear spec range. End play was like new. The thrust is original; never needed it cut. This is a 100% stock motor; no filter, single relief, etc. Bottom line is the H5 is just fine for stock motors and can run a good long time with zero issues. Regular dino 30w oil changes, valve adjust, etc. I only did the bottom end rebuild on this because I suspected the lifters were flat after 120k miles (they were).
Last edited by frenchroast on Mon May 03, 2021 3:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8501 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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Back in the day DR cases were not easy to come by as many were still on the road. In the junk yard you mainly got 40hp cores with a few Type 2 1500s here and there. A late SP 1500/1600 was the best you could hope for which were usually H or B cases. I built several 1835 and 1914 on the HO and H5 SR cases with no issues like cracking or such. The main thing I remember about these cases was the studs pulling which was remedied with case savers. For the 1914s I did have the plate welded in behind the number 3 but also had the top deep studded as well which I think is the real reason for no cracking. Back then I would get the core case and all the machine work done for $300 (line bore, bore for larger cylinder, case savers, deep stud, weld behind #3, full flow w/weld reinforcement, remove and tap galley plugs, extend oil pickup, deck case). One hot 1914 I ran in my late teens had 13:1 compression and lasted 3 long years of abuse before it got swapped out for a 2 liter. The case was still in great condition after all this time and a few years ago was built into a TW 1835 for a buddy. At the last few shops I worked at it seems all they sold were H case builds unless owner specified new case. On the come backs there was usually something else that was the issue never the case itself.
For a driver get the case savers and deep stud done and you will not have to worry any more than any other original case build. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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A local guy is running a 2332 with like 50k miles on it...
Using an H5 case.
I think the condition and tolerances matter more. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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Excellent first hand experience, altewagon I know that you are in europe. Where are you from Frenchroast?
Just asking because part of the theory I have heard that makes the most sense is the california emissions.... running hotter? And therefore fatiguing material??
Also due to the nature of how big a voice/ car culture/ heat/ miles put on in California... I'm wanting to understand if that has bearing on H case issue.
All my h cases have case savers.... so maybe that's why they havent pulled.... but I have heard people say worst case material 30% cottage cheese ect.... what was the material difference?
Also I want to wholeheartedly hear from people who have had H case issues.... I dont just want to hear the good.... feel free to post! Looking for the truth good or bad! |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8501 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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krisbeetle wrote: |
Excellent first hand experience, altewagon I know that you are in europe. |
Born and raised in SoCal in the SFV. Third generation VW family so have been working on them since I was a small child. All my engines were from CA cars and that last case was actually from a burnt bug. Surprisingly it was not an engine fire but still got hotter than most. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2105
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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At this point in time there might be a survivorship bias. I'd love to see the differences between H5 and H0 case composition, it's also a fact that H5 engines were tuned differently (leaner jetting, TDC timing), and in any case case savers and deep studding do seem to make a big difference in longevity |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 679
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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krisbeetle wrote: |
Excellent first hand experience, altewagon I know that you are in europe. Where are you from Frenchroast? |
I'm in the pacific northwest in the US. Mild climate near sea level. As far as I know, all 69 bugs in the US market like mine had the throttle positioner and the draft tube breather pipe. Those are the only emission related things I know of on those cars and they should have no effect on the case. If your motor isn't abused, neglected, etc. it should be fine. I used to routinely drive non-stop to SoCal 70-75mph hours on end in the summer, never had a problem, stock cooler, no gauges, dino oil, etc. and my case is still in perfect condition. I can only vouch for a stock, maintained motor but from what others have said here, the H case can be used reliably for other applications. The only non-stock thing I might do on a future project motor is a counterbalanced crank. For peace-of-mind, I balance the pressure plate with the flywheel and the pistons and rods to +/- 0 grams.
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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
krisbeetle wrote: |
Excellent first hand experience, altewagon I know that you are in europe. |
Born and raised in SoCal in the SFV. Third generation VW family so have been working on them since I was a small child. All my engines were from CA cars and that last case was actually from a burnt bug. Surprisingly it was not an engine fire but still got hotter than most. |
My apology I saw the capital A and thought Alstrup.. well excellent !that goes a little bit towards disproving my California emissions thoughts...
Thanks to others to contributions....
I wish that guy who was designing a affordable vw case 13 years ago who participated frequently on here was still around .. he knew case composition on a scientific and practical level! |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9756 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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krisbeetle wrote: |
I wish that guy who was designing a affordable vw case 13 years ago who participated frequently on here was still around .. he knew case composition on a scientific and practical level! |
Do you mean Todd Francis?
He's making cases. But they are not cheap.
They are called TF-1. You can search in this forum and learn a bit about them. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1710 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
krisbeetle wrote: |
Excellent first hand experience, altewagon I know that you are in europe. |
Born and raised in SoCal in the SFV. Third generation VW family so have been working on them since I was a small child. All my engines were from CA cars and that last case was actually from a burnt bug. Surprisingly it was not an engine fire but still got hotter than most. |
S.F.V. ?? we're practically brothers . . LOL
I have an H5 1914cc thats been trucking along for over 10 years.
I original built it for my baja with a single 40 idf and hammered it pretty good out in dove springs and Glamis for years then put it my 61 with dual 40s and even a stock solex for a bit. It's now in my Ghia with 44 IDFs and doing great.
During that time it's had new rings, cylinders and the main bearings replaced twice but the case has never never been line bored.
Im still amazed at how long its lasted. |
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2105
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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If someone has a Type 1 or 2 parts book published between august 67 and july 69 we could see if the part number for the crankcase is different for M157 engines (H5 or B5) and rest of the world 1500/1600s (H0 or B0), which would hint that the case composition is indeed different as stated by many people, I used to agree but I'm not sure anymore.
later part books show the same dual relief case as the spare part for all engines |
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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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So they are supposedly soft cases..... but we have a couple accounts of saddles not getting pounded out....
Was this mostly just head studs pulling out of cases?
So was it a softer material? Where does this wide spread knowledge come from?
Or Is this from people without torque wrenches cranking these things down as much as they can and with increased displacement it would pull the stud vs a 1200?
Where are all the guys who normally pipe up saying these things aren't even good for a boat anchor? YES I read that on this site |
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FarmerBill Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017 Posts: 766 Location: New England
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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I had an H0 case 1600 sp in a 71 bus/camper. It pulled me and 3 other people, and all our crap all over the country. Over the rockies twice, across death valley in late July, all over the cascades for three months. 30,000 miles of well maintained not quite abuse, and it never pulled a stud or cracked. So in my experience you can run them hard in stock form without trouble. |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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theres nothing wrong with a good H case. back in 1970 my friend built a 69x92 drag race motor .that he raced for 10 years . shifting it at 8,200 rpm he used a deano oil pump . fk 89 cam 48 ida weber carbs super flow heads deano 92s cyl. a stock vw crank yes a stock vw crank stock vw rods . back then he did not have a lot of money lol but it worked . he rebuilt the motor with new bearing after raceing the vw bug all summer . so H cases can hold up . the best single port case is a 1970 .it had every thing a dual port case had . my self i built many h case motors .that i street raced and drag raced at a drag strip back in the 1960s 70s 80s . now a days .you can have better luck finding a good h case . over trying to find a dual port case . cases are getting super hard to find now a days .i went to a vw show and swap meet here in ohio . i could not find any used cases. no vw cranks no fly wheels. vw parts are drying up here in ohio with new cases costing $700.00 to a $1,000.00 back in the early 1960s the first H gas drag race vws like deano and empi .used H cases in there gasser motors. my first all drag race vw with a H case with a holley bug spray carb mallory dizy 69x 92 headers it ran low 14s 1/4 mile i had more fun in that race car i won a lot of races i raced it for 6 years. never rebuilt the the motor. sold the motor to a friend he raced it 3 years. be for it took a rod through the top of the case lol spencerfvee
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krisbeetle Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2005 Posts: 778
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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thanks spence!
Ok..... this thread is the H case black sheep promoter of the samba....
I still want to hear from all the people who have had the soft h case issues talked about for what? 2 decades on this site!....
Please be my guest lookig for truth here..... Be the black sheep of THIS thread and tell us about these terrible H cases! pulling studs... pounding out main bearing saddles early...... I want the BAD news!
also still wondering... what is case composition vs the previous 40hp D case touted to be great.... and vs the as41 ect case (also great) ?
I just just dont get if they were that bad how #1 they were worse than the 40hp material. composition..... (did they try something new? anyone know)
#2 if they were that bad why they weren't recalled back in the day and re cased bastard 40 hp style.... if you catch my drift....
You know if it was that big a deal like its made to be.... tons of bugs sold in that time frame.... they would have had a number of people putting high miles on them and the low oil pressure and stud pulling issue would have caused a larger response by VW....
even in literature such as how progressive refinements sort of shows such things in a way. with VWs response/ progression response to defects......
Out of all of the documentation from dealers posted to this site..,. this is supposedly a BIG issue with guys saying chuck the things even on stock rebuild sometimes....not worth the risk to build upon it....
still searching for proof....... post up! |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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krisbeetle wrote: |
thanks spence!
Ok..... this thread is the H case black sheep promoter of the samba....
I still want to hear from all the people who have had the soft h case issues talked about for what? 2 decades on this site!....
Please be my guest lookig for truth here..... Be the black sheep of THIS thread and tell us about these terrible H cases! pulling studs... pounding out main bearing saddles early...... I want the BAD news!
also still wondering... what is case composition vs the previous 40hp D case touted to be great.... and vs the as41 ect case (also great) ?
I just just dont get if they were that bad how #1 they were worse than the 40hp material. composition..... (did they try something new? anyone know)
#2 if they were that bad why they weren't recalled back in the day and re cased bastard 40 hp style.... if you catch my drift....
You know if it was that big a deal like its made to be.... tons of bugs sold in that time frame.... they would have had a number of people putting high miles on them and the low oil pressure and stud pulling issue would have caused a larger response by VW....
even in literature such as how progressive refinements sort of shows such things in a way. with VWs response/ progression response to defects......
Out of all of the documentation from dealers posted to this site..,. this is supposedly a BIG issue with guys saying chuck the things even on stock rebuild sometimes....not worth the risk to build upon it....
still searching for proof....... post up! |
....................................................i would like to add to my post . when you look to buy a used h case . try to look the case over to see if it had a hard life . . the best h cases are the auto stick ones they seen to have not had the crap run out of them . all so think about this all stock vw cases are over 50 years old and can fail . what made the 1968 to 1970s cases to fail was the EPA. vw leaned the carbs out to meet the EPA rules . . so the motors ran hot thats why the studs pulled out but not as bad as people made it out to be back in the 1960s. i made a lot of money back then. re jetting the stock carbs with bigger main jet . and you must under stand there is people out there that can trash any vw motor made lol even dual port motors can have a bad name .about dual port cases not holding up . so good luck spencerfvee |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12709 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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Interesting thread!
It's starting to look like you are uncovering yet another myth to add to several others already in existence around our air cooled VWs. To tell you the truth I had not heard about the "soft case" thing before I found this site. It's a bit like gossip I think, easy to start a rumor but not so easy to stop one!
Keep up the good work! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Fact vs Fiction on the H0 H1 H5 case with a small twist! |
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oprn wrote: |
Interesting thread!
It's starting to look like you are uncovering yet another myth to add to several others already in existence around our air cooled VWs. To tell you the truth I had not heard about the "soft case" thing before I found this site. It's a bit like gossip I think, easy to start a rumor but not so easy to stop one!
Keep up the good work! |
..............................................................in my years of working in vw shops. i have seen dual port cases turn to soft cases as you put it . the lifter bores how can i put it. they just fell apart from being soft . it was a crazy thing to see . i have seen it 5 times .mag cases can break down. the older they get .have you ever seen a case. where it has set for years with oil in it .and you open the oil plate to drain the oil and the case is eat a way. to the point the case is junk. i have many times. some say its whats in the oil we use . that makes the case soft and can make a case eaten a way from the oil spencerfvee |
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