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Kentucky Bus Man
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Joined: May 09, 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Louisa, Kentucky
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 Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:51 pm Post subject: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| I have a 73 bus with a 76 2.0 GD code engine. It always had a little noise in it that I was concerned about, but decided to just push on and see what happened. Well I found out, it lost power and starting hammering hard. That was about a year ago. I parked it and started half-heartedly looking for a motor. So I have found an EA code 1.7 that is basically a new crate engine. I have researched many threads here discussing the torque and compression differences in those engines as compared to a regular 1.7. No more than I drive the bus, I think I can live with that part of it. My question is, how many of my parts off of the 2.0 will fit back on the 1.7. It is a long block with nothing but heads and a flywheel on it. Will my exhaust, Fan, shroud, etc... all of these things fit? Looking for any advice on going this route. Oh, one last thing, where is the oil filter on that EA? |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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Oops, AE ≠ EA
Last edited by Wildthings on Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16961
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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So telling me you want to install an EA engine is like speaking Russian to me. Can we start over?
Hi guys, I found a 1700 type 1 engine and want to know what’s involved with swapping it into my 1973 bus? Is that it?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Looking in the Technical Section, it looks like an EA engine is Type 1 engine that started life as a 1600. There would be very little that would interchange between a Type 1 engine and a Type 4 engine. The distributor maybe. You will also have to deal with the transmission input shaft being too long, though shortening one isn't a big deal. |
Mmmm.....no. Are you sure you guys are not thinking of an "AE" series engine maybe?
Because.......the EA series engine is a 1.7L type 4 engine common from August of 1971 onward in VW 411 and 914 Porsche. 8.2:1 compressiin ratio.
To the OP......you have a 1973 bus? It originally had a low compression twin carb 1.7L. Now it has a blown 2.0L that whille it works just fine....does not really belong in it either.
If what you have is really an "EA 1.7L".....almost all of the external parts that ard on your blown 2.0L engine will fit right across.
But....you need to post some pictures.....because if the "new" 1.7L engine you have ....is really an EA series type 4 1.7L......you should not be having to ask where the oil filter is....because all type 4 engines have the oil filter in the same place. Ray |
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WhirledTraveller
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Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:57 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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EA code engine was installed on a 411/412/Porsche. Higher compression pistons. And the oil *filler* will be in a different place. But yes you can put it in your bus. And then you can tell everyone you have a Porsche motor.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:22 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
| EA code engine was installed on a 411/412/Porsche. Higher compression pistons. And the oil *filler* will be in a different place. But yes you can put it in your bus. And then you can tell everyone you have a Porsche motor. |
 .....while the OP......DID.....spell it ...."FILTER"......I am sure you are 100% correct that he meant FILLER!......damn I am slow today!
Ray |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Mmmm.....no. Are you sure you guys are not thinking of an "AE" series engine maybe? |
Oops, the Type 1 engine used in buses is an AE and not an EA.  |
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Kentucky Bus Man
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Joined: May 09, 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Louisa, Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| Yes it is an EA Porsche engine, which I am assuming has the 8.2:1 compression ratio. My concern is how many of the external parts will bolt right up to it off of my 2.0. I did mean FILLER, not filter (I am assuming it is going to be up top somewhere). I have an engine compartment hatch, so it shouldn't be that bad. I haven't purchased the engine yet, so I don't have a way to post any pics. |
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16961
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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I believe the dip stick will also be different
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
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babysnakes
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Joined: August 19, 2008
Posts: 7106
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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A 914 engine will have the oil filler on top of the breather tower and not coming out the lower right rear of the case (blocked by casting). You will have to source the filler/breather. This may make filling not so easy.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| Kentucky Bus Man wrote: |
| Yes it is an EA Porsche engine, which I am assuming has the 8.2:1 compression ratio. My concern is how many of the external parts will bolt right up to it off of my 2.0. I did mean FILLER, not filter (I am assuming it is going to be up top somewhere). I have an engine compartment hatch, so it shouldn't be that bad. I haven't purchased the engine yet, so I don't have a way to post any pics. |
Just be sure its actually a "Porsche" engine.....if you are paying Porsche prices. There is not one single functional/performance difference between the EA 1.7L from a 914 and the EA 1.7L from a 411/412. They are 100% the same and made on the same assembly line.
There were a lot more 411 and 412's made....roughly 115,000 Porsche 914 4 cylinder type 4 engined cars were made of all three types (1.7L, 1.8L and 2.0L). There were over 367,000 411 and 412 made from 1968 to early 1975. The EA series were used in about three years of these.....so the chances are a good bit higher that this is an EA engine from a 411 or 412.
The 914 crowd tends to pay/charge about 3X what some parts are worth...because they generally have no idea that a lot of the major parts of a 1.7 and 1.8L were actually used in other vehicles
However...the minor differences that can cause you an issue....are that the heat exchanges of the Porsche version are longer and backwards from type 4 engines that would go into a 411/412 or bus.
An EA series....engine case.....that was actually used in a Porsche 914 and not in a 411 or 412....may have some extra value to an owner who needs one for a Porsche 914 build....ONLY....because the case serial number is in a 914 specific location near the Bell housing and cylinder #3...instead of being next to the oil filler like all other type 4 cars.
Other than that...there is "0" reason to pay a single penny more for a 914 1.7L versus a 411/412 1.7L engine....because they are otherwise 10% identical. Same output, same pistons, compression, valves cylinders, cam, ignition and injection.
Ray |
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Kentucky Bus Man
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Joined: May 09, 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Louisa, Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| Ray I hope you are right. I couldn't care less if it were a Porsche engine. I just want a good running engine for my bus and I have found one that is a good deal. But lots of things I have read tell me an EA has domed pistons and a higher compression ratio than the standard 1.7 bus engine. Is this how you understand it? And you are telling me my heater boxes won't bolt up as well, correct? I am not looking for heat, so could I just J-tube it and get on with my life? |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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Your bus heat exchangers will bolt to the heads, Ray meant the Porsche ones point the wrong way for bus use, the flanges on the heads are the same.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:41 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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Yup!.....as BD stated. The HEs will bolt up fine.
Yes....the EA should have 8.2:1 compression and domed pistons.
The other issues.
It IS a 1.7L.
While all of your existing 2.0L manifolds and parts WILL bolt up.....the 2.0L center manifold with the larger TB it comes with....and the slightly larger injectors....will give some tuning and running issues.
Not sure if its ALL going to be a big issue. The center intake manifold volume of the 2.0 will probably be the biggest problem. But you can get a 1.7L center plenun and TB for pretty cheap. Lots of them out there.
Or if you are carbed.....you should be fine. Ray |
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Kentucky Bus Man
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Joined: May 09, 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Louisa, Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:36 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yup!.....as BD stated. The HEs will bolt up fine.
Yes....the EA should have 8.2:1 compression and domed pistons.
The other issues.
It IS a 1.7L.
While all of your existing 2.0L manifolds and parts WILL bolt up.....the 2.0L center manifold with the larger TB it comes with....and the slightly larger injectors....will give some tuning and running issues.
Not sure if its ALL going to be a big issue. The center intake manifold volume of the 2.0 will probably be the biggest problem. But you can get a 1.7L center plenun and TB for pretty cheap. Lots of them out there.
Or if you are carbed.....you should be fine. Ray |
Yes it is carbed, in fact I am thinking I will abandon my Weber Progressive (came in the bus) and go to a dual carb set up on the 1.7. Thank you all for the information. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| Kentucky Bus Man wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yup!.....as BD stated. The HEs will bolt up fine.
Yes....the EA should have 8.2:1 compression and domed pistons.
The other issues.
It IS a 1.7L.
While all of your existing 2.0L manifolds and parts WILL bolt up.....the 2.0L center manifold with the larger TB it comes with....and the slightly larger injectors....will give some tuning and running issues.
Not sure if its ALL going to be a big issue. The center intake manifold volume of the 2.0 will probably be the biggest problem. But you can get a 1.7L center plenun and TB for pretty cheap. Lots of them out there.
Or if you are carbed.....you should be fine. Ray |
Yes it is carbed, in fact I am thinking I will abandon my Weber Progressive (came in the bus) and go to a dual carb set up on the 1.7. Thank you all for the information. |
Oh yes! Dual carbs for sure!.
In fact that is probably the easiest way to insure that a high compression 1.7l from a 411, 412 or Porsche 914 will not have problems running in a bus with bus weight, gearing and aerodynamics.
The biggest worry.....for bus people..... with running the high compression 1.7L in a bus.....is heat. Some run it with no problems but it needs to be tuned carefully.
In its stock form.....the EA engine pretty much always came with D-jet injection. Its somewhat lean burn, ignition advance and high compression makes for a bit more heat in a bus. But running it with twin carbs should do well.
There is a recent thread about the timing this engine needs in a bus. Two schools of thought.....vanapplebomb had some good comments....maybe 3 weeks ago.
Also.....you said this is a "crate motor"? Do you mean that its factory OEM.....or just fully rebuilt? Either way you need to pull the heads when you get it. You MUST remove the factory head gaskets if they are there.
If it was rebuilt by "someone" i would check everything Let us know when you get there. Ray |
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Kentucky Bus Man
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Joined: May 09, 2015
Posts: 23
Location: Louisa, Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Kentucky Bus Man wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yup!.....as BD stated. The HEs will bolt up fine.
Yes....the EA should have 8.2:1 compression and domed pistons.
The other issues.
It IS a 1.7L.
While all of your existing 2.0L manifolds and parts WILL bolt up.....the 2.0L center manifold with the larger TB it comes with....and the slightly larger injectors....will give some tuning and running issues.
Not sure if its ALL going to be a big issue. The center intake manifold volume of the 2.0 will probably be the biggest problem. But you can get a 1.7L center plenun and TB for pretty cheap. Lots of them out there.
Or if you are carbed.....you should be fine. Ray |
Yes it is carbed, in fact I am thinking I will abandon my Weber Progressive (came in the bus) and go to a dual carb set up on the 1.7. Thank you all for the information. |
Oh yes! Dual carbs for sure!.
In fact that is probably the easiest way to insure that a high compression 1.7l from a 411, 412 or Porsche 914 will not have problems running in a bus with bus weight, gearing and aerodynamics.
The biggest worry.....for bus people..... with running the high compression 1.7L in a bus.....is heat. Some run it with no problems but it needs to be tuned carefully.
In its stock form.....the EA engine pretty much always came with D-jet injection. Its somewhat lean burn, ignition advance and high compression makes for a bit more heat in a bus. But running it with twin carbs should do well.
There is a recent thread about the timing this engine needs in a bus. Two schools of thought.....vanapplebomb had some good comments....maybe 3 weeks ago.
Also.....you said this is a "crate motor"? Do you mean that its factory OEM.....or just fully rebuilt? Either way you need to pull the heads when you get it. You MUST remove the factory head gaskets if they are there.
If it was rebuilt by "someone" i would check everything Let us know when you get there. Ray |
Ray it is a factory OEM. What is up with those head gaskets? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 6:22 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| Kentucky Bus Man wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Kentucky Bus Man wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yup!.....as BD stated. The HEs will bolt up fine.
Yes....the EA should have 8.2:1 compression and domed pistons.
The other issues.
It IS a 1.7L.
While all of your existing 2.0L manifolds and parts WILL bolt up.....the 2.0L center manifold with the larger TB it comes with....and the slightly larger injectors....will give some tuning and running issues.
Not sure if its ALL going to be a big issue. The center intake manifold volume of the 2.0 will probably be the biggest problem. But you can get a 1.7L center plenun and TB for pretty cheap. Lots of them out there.
Or if you are carbed.....you should be fine. Ray |
Yes it is carbed, in fact I am thinking I will abandon my Weber Progressive (came in the bus) and go to a dual carb set up on the 1.7. Thank you all for the information. |
Oh yes! Dual carbs for sure!.
In fact that is probably the easiest way to insure that a high compression 1.7l from a 411, 412 or Porsche 914 will not have problems running in a bus with bus weight, gearing and aerodynamics.
The biggest worry.....for bus people..... with running the high compression 1.7L in a bus.....is heat. Some run it with no problems but it needs to be tuned carefully.
In its stock form.....the EA engine pretty much always came with D-jet injection. Its somewhat lean burn, ignition advance and high compression makes for a bit more heat in a bus. But running it with twin carbs should do well.
There is a recent thread about the timing this engine needs in a bus. Two schools of thought.....vanapplebomb had some good comments....maybe 3 weeks ago.
Also.....you said this is a "crate motor"? Do you mean that its factory OEM.....or just fully rebuilt? Either way you need to pull the heads when you get it. You MUST remove the factory head gaskets if they are there.
If it was rebuilt by "someone" i would check everything Let us know when you get there. Ray |
Ray it is a factory OEM. What is up with those head gaskets? |
I will post a link to the VW technical service bulletin later......but......the type 4 engines were the only VW engines thst came with sealing rings or head gaskets.
They were not a great design. They came in a handful of thicknesses that helped various models tune compression as they sealed.....but most were about the same on each engine type/size.
They were kind of a double wall type of steel construction. Think of them just like a giant "crush washer" like you use on an oil drain plug.
IIRC.....I think most 1.7L head gaskets started out either at ~0.030" and crushed down to ~0.028"-ish.....or started at 0.028" and crushed down to 0.025"-ish.
The problem is that these head gaskets are NOT spring steel. They cannot expand and contract with temperature cycles......and stayed sealed. A few ten thousand or so heat cycles .....and the cylinder studs, heads, head nuts and case are part of this cycle of expansion and contraction......and they fatigue.....and start to cause minor leaks.
That sounds like a minor head leak problem right?......NO!
It causes a red hot jet of flame at the tiny leak spot.....that cuts the head seating area AND the cylinder edge. It cannot be repaired even by welding once it starts and is driven on for any moderate length of time.
VW put out a TSB stating to get rid of the gaskets on the latest engines in service at that time which would mostly be 2.0L and vanagons.....but it applies to all type 4. I have seen equal numbers of all three engine sizes that have died from this. Some as low as 40- 50k miles.
Notice that type 1s never had these head gaskets. Ite because the jugs are lapped to the heads. The sealing rings were used to get rid of this labor center at the same time as it provided a method of tuning the deck for various compression ratios during the factory build.
Ray |
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restocal63
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Posts: 224
Location: Malta
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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Dear Ray,
A kind reminder for the link for the TSB for the removal of the sealing rings.
Thanks in advance. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: Re: EA 1.7 into a Bus |
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| restocal63 wrote: |
Dear Ray,
A kind reminder for the link for the TSB for the removal of the sealing rings.
Thanks in advance. |
Sorry for the delay.
Here is a link to it on Ratwells site
https://ratwell.com/mirror/www.dolphinsci.com/techbull.html
Keep in mind that this came out n 1990. It has several items in it that were added into the rebuild engine program process ...as they note...to improve heat transfer as well as get rid of a couple of other longevity issues. Virtually all of this is heat related in the US market.
The notching of the rods is a heat transfer thing. The cylinder clearance i a heat thing.
Getting rid of the head gasket is heat cycling thing. Virtually all of the head gaskets eventually leak. If you catch them and either replace or eliminate them...no big deal.
However...if you miss the issue and drive on it for extended amount if time...the head and cylinder will be toast. Ray |
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