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croSSeduP
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

Where to begin...
I'm having some strange electrical/charging issues that are new. Along with these "new" ghosts are two new parts. See the links below:
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-043-903-023-AB75
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15901/10002/-1
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10564/10002/-1
The other parts that go along with this were already in the car, and those are as follows:
https://www.jegs.com/i/Auto-Meter/105/3780/10002/-1
https://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/12-804/10002/-1?...YwEALw_wcB
Here are the issues... My tach has started jumping around. It no longer reads a steady rpm, especially around 2k rpm. I've tried routing the coil lead along a different path to try and isolate from any "noise" and it made no difference.
My fuel pressure at idle is dropping off to the point that the carbs run out of gas sitting there idling. I thought it was because I had a bad battery (turns out it was bad), so I replaced the battery thinking these things would go away. Nope. Still have the same issues. I've talked with Autometer about the tach issue, and that's why I re-routed the wiring and replaced the battery. In terms of the fuel delivery, I can't imagine that the regulator went "bad." It's a near caveman simple device. Plus, the fuel issue seems to be rpm related. I've never run out of gas when I'm driving around. Could the alternator be bad? Could the fuel pump be bad? Could the relay supplying juice to the pump be bad? Maybe these problems are not related?
Just weird...
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

croSSeduP wrote:
Here are the issues... My tach has started jumping around. It no longer reads a steady rpm, especially around 2k rpm.


If you have an AutoMeter tach they have a technical video on their website on how to fix the bouncy needle issue.
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croSSeduP
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
croSSeduP wrote:
Here are the issues... My tach has started jumping around. It no longer reads a steady rpm, especially around 2k rpm.


If you have an AutoMeter tach they have a technical video on their website on how to fix the bouncy needle issue.

I couldn't find that vid on their website, but I found it through a search on YouTube. I can give what they talk about a try. Thanks. Doesn't solve the other issues, though.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

Here’s the tach video. It looks like one solution is to install a 10k ohm 1/2 watt resistor into the signal wire from the coil.

https://www.autometer.com/blog/faq-post/my-tach-pointer-is-erratic-jumpy/

As for the fuel issue, is the pressure litterally going to zero on a gauge at idle? I have seen that happen in an older regulator where the diaphragm was getting hard/spring weak. I would install a new spring/diaphragm to rule that out.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-807

Is your relay wired to the battery with only the ignition wire closing it to activate the pump? I know of a few Honda racers that attempted to hook a racing pump up to the stock 16 gauge wire, and the wire couldn’t carry the current. Their pressure gauge would magically drop as rpm increased demand. You could maybe make some jumper wires to connect to the pump, and hook up a volt meter to watch the voltage while the car is running.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Here’s the tach video. It looks like one solution is to install a 10k ohm 1/2 watt resistor into the signal wire from the coil.

https://www.autometer.com/blog/faq-post/my-tach-pointer-is-erratic-jumpy/


Would this resister work with my CDI as well? My tach is jumping a bit.
You suggested the resister in the "Chinese" ignition thread.

Sorry for the mini hijack OP.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Here’s the tach video. It looks like one solution is to install a 10k ohm 1/2 watt resistor into the signal wire from the coil.

https://www.autometer.com/blog/faq-post/my-tach-pointer-is-erratic-jumpy/


Would this resister work with my CDI as well? My tach is jumping a bit.
You suggested the resister in the "Chinese" ignition thread.

Sorry for the mini hijack OP.


The main issue with a CDI is not using solid core wires, and using spiral wound ones. This applies to the OP as well if they are using a CDI. I’ve never had an issue, but if Autometer is suggesting it to help with the issue, I would try it.
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croSSeduP
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Here’s the tach video. It looks like one solution is to install a 10k ohm 1/2 watt resistor into the signal wire from the coil.

https://www.autometer.com/blog/faq-post/my-tach-pointer-is-erratic-jumpy/

As for the fuel issue, is the pressure litterally going to zero on a gauge at idle? I have seen that happen in an older regulator where the diaphragm was getting hard/spring weak. I would install a new spring/diaphragm to rule that out.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-807

Is your relay wired to the battery with only the ignition wire closing it to activate the pump? I know of a few Honda racers that attempted to hook a racing pump up to the stock 16 gauge wire, and the wire couldn’t carry the current. Their pressure gauge would magically drop as rpm increased demand. You could maybe make some jumper wires to connect to the pump, and hook up a volt meter to watch the voltage while the car is running.

No, I have the pump wired to an in-dash switch that turns the juice on/off. I used to run a Holley Red w/o a relay and that switch and that pump worked flawlessly. As far as jumper wires, etc., you're getting into things that I don't understand. Electronics are a bit arcane to me. I don't understand how these things work. That's why I need step by step instructions on how to wire things up. To wit, that resistor trick... I have no idea why that would work. I just hook it up because someone who knows more than I do says it will work. It's like a little parcel of magic.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

One thing at a time. A diode at the tach input, usually levels out the tach. If you are running a CDI, then you may need a tach-adapter.

For fuel pressure, I’ve had problems with that regulator in the past. A rebuild kit is an easy stop, as several years ago there was a bad patch of regulator springs. Also, be sure you are not measuring pressure with a liquid filled gauge in the engine compartment. As increases temperatures will cause it to ready lower.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

Several things.... One is out pressure gauge before regulator and let engine idle for awhile to see if you have fuel pump issues or pressure regulator issues.... Pretty sure electric fuel pump should keep up with engine all the times .. Meaning pressure should be constant (on pump output) no matter what engine demand is....If gauge reading is good all the time, then regulator has issues...

As for power to fuel pump, it should have 12 gauge wire from a strong battery source (fuse panel or direct from battery) through relay to pump... Control circuit/wire for relay can be smaller though...

Personally prefer this controller over straight relay....

https://www.revolutionelectronics.com/Products/Fuel_Pump.html

Alternator when working properly should see a 13.8 to 14.2 volt DC output at B+ terminal when rpm just above idle...
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

croSSeduP wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Here’s the tach video. It looks like one solution is to install a 10k ohm 1/2 watt resistor into the signal wire from the coil.

https://www.autometer.com/blog/faq-post/my-tach-pointer-is-erratic-jumpy/

As for the fuel issue, is the pressure litterally going to zero on a gauge at idle? I have seen that happen in an older regulator where the diaphragm was getting hard/spring weak. I would install a new spring/diaphragm to rule that out.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-807

Is your relay wired to the battery with only the ignition wire closing it to activate the pump? I know of a few Honda racers that attempted to hook a racing pump up to the stock 16 gauge wire, and the wire couldn’t carry the current. Their pressure gauge would magically drop as rpm increased demand. You could maybe make some jumper wires to connect to the pump, and hook up a volt meter to watch the voltage while the car is running.

No, I have the pump wired to an in-dash switch that turns the juice on/off. I used to run a Holley Red w/o a relay and that switch and that pump worked flawlessly. As far as jumper wires, etc., you're getting into things that I don't understand. Electronics are a bit arcane to me. I don't understand how these things work. That's why I need step by step instructions on how to wire things up. To wit, that resistor trick... I have no idea why that would work. I just hook it up because someone who knows more than I do says it will work. It's like a little parcel of magic.


That’s fine if you have a wire from the battery, to a switch, to the pump. While it’s a good idea to have some type of shut off for an accident, as long as the wire/switch is heavy enough for the current, you shouldn’t have an issue. I’ve seen people try to use the circuit in the fuse panel that gives power to the coil to also power the pump, and it’s simply not a large enough circuit. A relay could allow heavy wire to go directly to the pump from the battery, but use the ignition wire power to close the relay to send power to the pump.
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croSSeduP
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
croSSeduP wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Here’s the tach video. It looks like one solution is to install a 10k ohm 1/2 watt resistor into the signal wire from the coil.

https://www.autometer.com/blog/faq-post/my-tach-pointer-is-erratic-jumpy/

As for the fuel issue, is the pressure litterally going to zero on a gauge at idle? I have seen that happen in an older regulator where the diaphragm was getting hard/spring weak. I would install a new spring/diaphragm to rule that out.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-807

Is your relay wired to the battery with only the ignition wire closing it to activate the pump? I know of a few Honda racers that attempted to hook a racing pump up to the stock 16 gauge wire, and the wire couldn’t carry the current. Their pressure gauge would magically drop as rpm increased demand. You could maybe make some jumper wires to connect to the pump, and hook up a volt meter to watch the voltage while the car is running.

No, I have the pump wired to an in-dash switch that turns the juice on/off. I used to run a Holley Red w/o a relay and that switch and that pump worked flawlessly. As far as jumper wires, etc., you're getting into things that I don't understand. Electronics are a bit arcane to me. I don't understand how these things work. That's why I need step by step instructions on how to wire things up. To wit, that resistor trick... I have no idea why that would work. I just hook it up because someone who knows more than I do says it will work. It's like a little parcel of magic.


That’s fine if you have a wire from the battery, to a switch, to the pump. While it’s a good idea to have some type of shut off for an accident, as long as the wire/switch is heavy enough for the current, you shouldn’t have an issue. I’ve seen people try to use the circuit in the fuse panel that gives power to the coil to also power the pump, and it’s simply not a large enough circuit. A relay could allow heavy wire to go directly to the pump from the battery, but use the ignition wire power to close the relay to send power to the pump.

You're saying I should run a large gauge wire directly from the battery to get juice? I didn't do that with the Holley Red and everything worked fine.
As far as putting the fuel pressure gauge before the regulator, that could be a problem. I'm going to have to pull apart the entire fuel routing after it goes through the firewall to troubleshoot that.
God. I'm so SICK of all these problems! One after another, after another, after another....
d'oh!
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

Elec trouble shooting stinks but you can do it.

Get out your volt meter and check the output of your alternator at idle and at 3k rpms. What is it? I noticed the link you provided indicates that the alternator is powder coated. How is it grounded? It is usually grounded through the alternator body through the alternator stand and then through the engine via the tranny ground strap. If the alternator is powder coated this can be a problem for ground (same with the alternator stand). Also the tranny strap by the nosecone to the frame horn must be good.

Then check the volts up to your fuse box and then to your coil or CDI. It should be really close to what you are getting out of the alternator or at the battery.

After checking voltage output and for voltage drop to the fuse box and coil/cdi, then I would check all of my coil/tach electrical connections in the engine compartment as well as the spark plug wires.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

UPDATE: After doing some troubleshooting I'm 99% sure the problem is with the fuel pump. I tried running a 10 gauge jumper wire directly from the pump to the battery, and I'm still losing fuel pressure. When I see the fuel pressure start to gradually drop from 3lbs I open up the regulator, and the pressure doesn't change, it continues to drop gradually until it reaches 0.
BTW, all the grounds are good.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

croSSeduP wrote:
UPDATE: After doing some troubleshooting I'm 99% sure the problem is with the fuel pump. I tried running a 10 gauge jumper wire directly from the pump to the battery, and I'm still losing fuel pressure. When I see the fuel pressure start to gradually drop from 3lbs I open up the regulator, and the pressure doesn't change, it continues to drop gradually until it reaches 0.
BTW, all the grounds are good.


If you weren’t having current issues before, you must of had it wired into a fairly large circuit.

That’s what was happening to a friends system, and the regulator rebuild kit solved it. If you have another pump to try, try it. If you have to buy a pump to try, I would get the regulator kit for $7.95 to try first.

As for a gauge, I would have it after the regulator in one of the lines. There are nice 3/8’s NPT to AN 6, or 8 fittings that have a 1/8 NPT hole in the hex to mount one of the small 1 1/2 gauges.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-100194erl

Do you have any filter before, or after the pump? I worked on a Beetle with a Blue pump that was using one of the reusable type metal filter insert filters after the pump that was clogging causing loss of pressure.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

If you have to replace electric fuel pump...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p90091

No need for $198, 120 GPH pump....

Dale
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
If you have to replace electric fuel pump...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p90091

No need for $198, 120 GPH pump....

Dale


I disagree.

The p90091 replaced the p60504. The p60504 was 30gph, while the p90091 is only 15gph. I ran one of the p60504’s out of fuel around 700ft with a smaller engine than the op has created. I had to go down a couple jet sizes when I replaced it with a Holley Red from overcompensating for the lack of fuel delivery. While 120gph might not get full useage, 15gph isn’t going to keep up.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

That pump is not just 120 gpm, but its 6.5psi, and has to be regulated down to 3psi, which are not the holley style regulators strong points at all. I'm guessing you dead headed that pump without a return line huh? so its just setting there pumping a crapload of gas that your not using. If its broken, heres your perfect chance to get something that fits, like a 72 gph Carter such as below that has a internal bypass that has zero stress/overloading when not using its full capacity. 4-6psi and a better regulator would be a malpassi, as they calm down pulsations perfectly smooth. 72 gph is perfect for a 250 hp or less vw engine.

Example of a carter 4070:
https://www.amazon.com/Line-Electric-Universal-Out...s9dHJ1ZQ==
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Chasing Ghosts... Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Dale M. wrote:
If you have to replace electric fuel pump...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p90091

No need for $198, 120 GPH pump....

Dale


I disagree.

The p90091 replaced the p60504. The p60504 was 30gph, while the p90091 is only 15gph. I ran one of the p60504’s out of fuel around 700ft with a smaller engine than the op has created. I had to go down a couple jet sizes when I replaced it with a Holley Red from overcompensating for the lack of fuel delivery. While 120gph might not get full useage, 15gph isn’t going to keep up.


You may be right, and a 120 GPH pump is way over kill.... And back pressuring it with regulator is probably killing it.... And good 30-40 GPH pump is probably more than sufficient for most street engines....
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