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'84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Won't Start
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describethefauna
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Won't Start Reply with quote

Hello All!

Starting the thread of diagnosing our van. Not much info at the moment but here's what I have and will post any diagnostics I try and (hopefully) the ultimate issue to help any others who might have the same issue(s).

Clif-notes:
- drives fine for almost 2 hours
- sudden squeal, loses power, engine dies
- wont start (starter turns over)
- visually inspect fuel lines, engine bay - nothing to note
- check power - no power to coil

Happy to hear suggestions about what to try. I'm a very novice mechanic but have a classically trained (farm gear) father-in-law to help administer any recommended tests.



Directors cut:
Driving home yesterday after 1.5+ hrs of wonderfully mellow country-road cruising I'm coming around the corner 3 miles from home and the engine starts to squeal loudly when I give it gas & starts to lose power. As I drift to the side of the road I try to giving it gas (in neutral) to stop it from dying (doesn't work) but giving it more gas causes it to squeal more (this is all in about 20 seconds as it's dying).

Now I'm (thankfully) pulled over and try starting it with no luck. The starter turns over just fine, but it's either not getting gas or spark. The engine is not responding at all. I can hear the fuel pump whirr when I turn the key and check for fuel leaks from the pump/filters and back thru the injectors - there dont seem to be any.

Check the plugs, distributor and coil - coil is cracked slightly where the plug sits on it, but the connection seems fine. Grab meter and check for power at plugs (none) power at coil (none).

There seem to be a few things all regulating power distribution around this area, so I'm wondering if something is not telling the injectors to inject, or not telling the coil to tell the plugs to fire. Or maybe simply wherever the power comes from that goes to the coil has a break in the line, or is defective.

So I need to try cutting out components, jumping parts to isolate the issue, and to do that I need to figure out how power gets from the battery to the coil.

Thanks for following along and any tips!
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

Squealing like a slipping fan belt? I’d address that first. It’s possible for the starter to hog enough energy that there is nothing left for the engine to actually run. A loose alt belt could affect charging. Time to measure your battery voltage.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

Can we assume you have the stock 1.9 engine?
Stick Shift or Automatic?
Power Steering?
Air Conditioning?

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describethefauna
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

@markward battery seems strong - starter is going going going when I turn the key, but (seems like) no spark. Engine is not responding, starter just keeps turning. Will check voltage today to confirm.

@djkeev stock engine with some work over the years lol. New headers 6 years ago. Manual 1.9L. No AC, no Power Steering.

Pic of the engine bay attached
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

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Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start


You need to determine if the squeal is related to the dying and no start. Your picture it is hard to see the distributor harness and I see someone added a green wire that's not original. The distributor sends an impulse to the ignition module to fire the coil. It does have spinning parts that I suppose could squeal.

If you have a timing light, clip it on your high voltage coil wire and attempt to start the engine. Does the timing light flash? It should.
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describethefauna
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

We got a tip from a trusted mechanic (shoutout Bill from Affordable German) to bypass the Hall device (green box on the left side of engine compartment) by unplugging the two connectors from it, and plugging them directly into each other. This actually worked, and the engine started right up.

We tightened the v-belt using the alternator adjustment arm, and the squeal is gone.

Odd that these two things happened at once - would love an explanation there, but not sure we'll ever get one.

Trying to order a new Hall Idle Stabilizer, but it's tricky to find. Will post a link to what I find once I get it squared up.

Unfortunately towing the car the few miles home from where it died, now the front drivers wheel makes a raunchy rubbing/grinding sound when it spins. Need to jack up the front and make sure the dust plate isn't hitting the side of the wheel, or something else obvious... otherwise not sure what to look for.

Anyone have any experience with this happening after a tow? We were only going a short distance, but it was jerky at times. We towed with a strap tied around the front tow hitch, just right of center under the front bumper.

Will update again when I find a Hall Control!
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

I wouldn't worry about the digital idle stabilizer box. It was more of an emissions addon to control idle rpm by changing ignition timing. If the auxiliary air regulator is working properly you should be fine.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

Agreed you can run forever without the DIS, it is supposed to improve the idle but has several failure modes, including flat out killing the spark.

Your alternator is at an angle, which suggests the mounting system is failing somehow. This should be addressed sooner than later, as the cost will just keep going up to fix as there are myriad things that can fail one after the other.
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4Gears4Tires
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

How does the motor run without the hall sender connected? How does the ECU know engine speed?
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires wrote:
How does the motor run without the hall sender connected? How does the ECU know engine speed?


He is talking about the Digital Idle Stabilizer and not the Hall Sender.
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describethefauna
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

Quick update on this thread that I received the Idle Stabilizer / Hall Control Unit in the mail and installed it (very easy) in place of the old one that seemed to be failing. Sharing a link to where I purchased - noting that some of the numbers on the outside are different between the original and the replacement, but I got word from the same mechanic that the black vs the green box shouldn't make a difference, and that seems to be the case as the car now starts with the Hall Unit plugged in.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Volkswagen-Shift-Mechanism-NOS-Vanagon-24-25-321906083/192872493469

Definitely the most affordable option I found. And pretty much every option had a 4-6wk wait / shipping time.

Now for the next piece of the puzzle...

Seemingly regardless of the Hall Unit, my thermostat / water pump / coolant system is being super irregular and weird. This engine has always run at steady temperatures, but now the temp gauge is flying all over the place. After one 10mi test drive and some driveway revving (kinda nervous to take it very far right now), my impression is that when the engine is at a low RPM that the coolant system / thermostat is failing, causing the engine temp to rise very quickly to a very high level, at which point I disengage the clutch and rev the engine pretty hard which seems to reset whatever is stuck and the temp starts to come back down again if I leave the throttle engaged at a higher RPM. The other interesting note/observation is that sometimes (more than a few times) the BATTERY and OXS dash lights flashed briefly (and sometimes stayed on) when the RPM dropped, just before the temp gauge started to rise rapidly. So - RPMs drop, two indicator lights flash, and coolant system seems to fail, sending the engine temp wayyyy up. Like almost to the top Shocked

*****
Any thoughts on engine temp / coolant system massively appreciated, never seen this before. Or links to other threads on this appreciated. I have a video of the temp gauge jumping around and the indicator lights flashing - if helpful I can upload to youtube and link.
*****

THANK YOU!
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Wont Start Reply with quote

describethefauna wrote:
...my impression is that when the engine is at a low RPM that the coolant system / thermostat is failing, causing the engine temp to rise very quickly to a very high level, at which point I disengage the clutch and rev the engine pretty hard which seems to reset whatever is stuck and the temp starts to come back down again if I leave the throttle engaged at a higher RPM...


Something with as much mass as your engine usually cannot change temperature quickly, either up or down.

What can happen is that the coolant level in the pressurized tank can change abruptly and trigger the sensor in the top of that tank that alerts you to a drop in the level.

The left hand tank:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When that sensor sees a drop in level (exposed to air rather than coolant) it should both start the light flashing and peg the needle.

That may the condition you are observing.
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the joker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Won't Start Reply with quote

you may need to bleed the system and really check the temp with infrared gauge
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: '84 Engine Squeal - Dies - Won't Start Reply with quote

The level sensors in the expansion tank are known for going bad. I have had several fail over the years. On the 1.9L engine this may cause the light to come on and will peg the gauge.
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