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Snoopy1971
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Parkville, Maryland
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 Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:22 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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So Bug broke down 4 blocks away on Thurs. Died while driving and wouldnt restart. After walking home and getting my Atlas and tow bar, I got it home and it sat all day while I was at work.
After getting home from work, it fired right up and ran just long enough to get it up the driveway (steep driveway, no way to push it up, glad it started!) ... it idled for about a minute and died and wouldnt restart.
So been tinkering with it for a few days. At first I thought maybe my choke was opening up too soon before it warmed up, but its a brand new carb and the choke seemed fine.
So today Im just looking around the engine bay and notice the pin under the fuel pump worked its way out:
Aha, so there's my issue ... So I get the pin back in and go to start it, and it still wont start ... cranks beautifully, but wont turn over.
So it sits for about 30 mins while I philosophically contemplate my next move ... So figure it may be electrically-related, I decide to test for spark.
I was going to check the coil-to-distributor cable first, so I get my 12-yr old son to help and I sit in the drivers seat to explain to him amd show him the key and turning it halfway turns the speedo lights on and then I went to turn the key to show him how it is going to crank but not start (I hadnt removed the coil wire yet) ...and wouldnt you know it, it starts right up!!
So I am a little curious why it would not start the first time right after I got the pin back in, but anyways, I let it run for like 10 mins and it idled fin ... stared it again a couple hours later and it seemed fine.
1) So I am curious, do you fine people think the pump is fine or did the pin coming out damage anything inside?
2) What is to prevent the pin form coming out again? I saw some ingenious mods to hold it in, in another threead ... not to worry, I won't use the duct tape like somebody's previous owner did.
3) Should I just replace the fuel pump all together? If So, What are some models that everyone had had success with? ... saw the ones on Jbugs & Cip1:
https://www.jbugs.com/product/113127025D.html
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D127%2D025%2DD
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D127%2D025%2DABC
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D127%2D025%2DDOE
Saw some rebuilt ones in the classifieds ...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2470780
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2470780
I guess my main immediate concern is if anyone thinks the existing pump is toast and I need a new one.
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76907
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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Other alternatives:
I run a fuel pump from O'Reilly purchased a few years ago in one of my VWs, and it has clips on that horizontal pivot rod. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/import-direct...&pos=3
On my other VW I had home-made retainer plates to keep the pin in place (I have since installed a pivot rod with end clips).
I've heard of other home-engineered fixes for the pivot pin as well....
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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bomberbob
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015
Posts: 688
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| Quote: |
| So I am a little curious why it would not start the first time right after I got the pin back in, but anyways, I let it run for like 10 mins and it idled fin ... stared it again a couple hours later and it seemed fine. |
Bowl was empty from the pump not operating properly. Took a few revolutions to get the pump squirting again, and get the level up in the carb.
Just my theory.
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1968 Beetle (storage)
1990 Jetta GLI megasquirted, burning E85 (currently in heavy maintenance)
2004 Jetta turbo GLI
Marion, Iowa |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| bomberbob wrote: |
Bowl was empty from the pump not operating properly. Took a few revolutions to get the pump squirting again, and get the level up in the carb.
Just my theory. |
Most likely.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Blue69Baja
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1065
Location: Fair Oaks
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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Haw, same thing happened to me a few months back... The E clip on the rear fell off and the pin fell out and was sitting on the block.... I put the pin back on and used a fresh E clip. It was slightly too big so I squeezed it a bit to tighten the fit.
I noticed that the shaft wobbles so the fit is a bit loose. Ummmm.. Not sure if that was the cause of the E clip falling off or that it was too loose fit.
I rebuilt that pump about 6,000 miles ago a Pierburg <> 1968+, not sure of the year.
I am going to search for another used Pierburg at the Sacramento Bugorama at the end of this month...
Jim
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69 Baja with a 1914...
72 Super 100% orig...W/ factory air... 56,000mi
Even the spare is original.. |
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Nbraynard
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| I had the same thing happen years ago. Also had a delay in starting up again. I simply put a small "C" clamp around the pump and continued to use it. Unless you buy a good quality pump you are probably better off with the one you have. |
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Snoopy1971
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Parkville, Maryland
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| Cusser wrote: |
On my other VW I had home-made retainer plates to keep the pin in place (I have since installed a pivot rod with end clips).
I've heard of other home-engineered fixes for the pivot pin as well.... |
Yeah I saw this pic in a thread from a couple years ago ... brilliant idea ... the guy who used a coathanged and ziptie was decent too ... the guy with tge ductape was interesting
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Snoopy1971
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Parkville, Maryland
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| bomberbob wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So I am a little curious why it would not start the first time right after I got the pin back in, but anyways, I let it run for like 10 mins and it idled fin ... stared it again a couple hours later and it seemed fine. |
Bowl was empty from the pump not operating properly. Took a few revolutions to get the pump squirting again, and get the level up in the carb.
Just my theory. |
Yeah thats what I figured ... I tried starting it 3 or 4 times, I wouldve thought that would have been enough
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Snoopy1971
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Parkville, Maryland
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| Blue69Baja wrote: |
Haw, same thing happened to me a few months back... The E clip on the rear fell off and the pin fell out and was sitting on the block.... I put the pin back on and used a fresh E clip. It was slightly too big so I squeezed it a bit to tighten the fit.
I noticed that the shaft wobbles so the fit is a bit loose. Ummmm.. Not sure if that was the cause of the E clip falling off or that it was too loose fit. |
Yeah wish mine had a clip
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Snoopy1971
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Parkville, Maryland
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| Nbraynard wrote: |
| I had the same thing happen years ago. Also had a delay in starting up again. I simply put a small "C" clamp around the pump and continued to use it. Unless you buy a good quality pump you are probably better off with the one you have. |
I thought of the C-clamp idea too ... have to keep checking it though to make sure it doesnt vibrate loose ... just the the pin
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calvinater
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014
Posts: 3328
Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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Perhaps a shouldered bolt and nylock nut.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76907
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AirHead1966
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2019
Posts: 568
Location: Triad Area NC
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:38 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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I know everyone is trying to make a buck but this amuses me. $9 for something that anyone can fix on their own with a small bolt, washers, a nut and some blue Loctite. All the stuff that people have in their garages already.
As long as there is someone willing to throw away money, someone is there to pick it up. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76907
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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Just make sure the bolt you use has a non-threaded shank or the fuel pump lever will wear quickly on the threads.
Personally I have a Bocar pump with the "C" clips from the start.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Snoopy1971
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2020
Posts: 178
Location: Parkville, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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So does the pin working itself out to the point of rendering the fuel pump non-operational cause any harm to the fuel pump??
I put the pin back in and took the car for a spin the other night, drove locally around my house, about 6 miles, maybe 20 minutes or so, no problem the pin didnt budge.
But I drove it to work yesterday (about 25 mins away, 15 mins of it highway) and when I got to work, the pin had worked its way back to where the end of the pin facing me was flush with the pump. I come out at lunchtime 5 hours later (after engine has cooled) and pushed the pin back out, which took some pressure with the flat side of a screwdriver.
So I drive home at the end of the day (about 30 mins or so in the afternoon due to traffic) and when I got home, the pin had worked itself almost completely back out again:
Since the engine was hot, I could easily push it back and forth through the hole with no problem.
So what causes the pin to suddenly become so loose? Is the pump OK?
I do have the pin coming in the mail that Glenn pointed out to me, just have to get C-Clips for it.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| Snoopy1971 wrote: |
| So does the pin working itself out to the point of rendering the fuel pump non-operational cause any harm to the fuel pump?? |
As long as you can reinstall the pin and the pump starts working once more you are likely fine.
| Snoopy1971 wrote: |
| So what causes the pin to suddenly become so loose? Is the pump OK? |
From your pics it looks like the edges of the flange were peened to originally hold the pin in place. Once the peening comes loose there is nothing actively holding the pin in place. The pin will always try to work loose.
When you get a chance, would you post the OD of the pin and the length?
I'm wondering if the local Home Depot/Lowes carries a metric bolt with a non-threaded shank long enough to fit in place of the pin. Alternatively, a properly sized sleeve with the proper OD to replace the pin and a bolt+nut that fits the ID of the sleeve to hold it in place. Either option would be quickly available to most.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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joey1320
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Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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You can use a punch to secure the pin in place by hitting the aluminum around it (can't recall the actual word). You can also, as I did, it paint the pin and the surrounding area with a bright color so you can check for any movement every time you open the hood.
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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| joey1320 wrote: |
| You can use a punch to secure the pin in place by hitting the aluminum around it (can't recall the actual word). |
peening
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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AirHead1966
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2019
Posts: 568
Location: Triad Area NC
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump & pin questions |
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1. Take the pin to a hardware store. Get yourself:
____a. A bolt that is (i) a bit longer than the pin; (ii) very slightly thinner than the pin
____b. A locking nut that fits that bolt.
____c. Blue Loctite (or borrow your wife's nail polish or you own, I don't judge)
2. Put the bolt through the fuel pump where the pin used to be.
3. Put some Loctite on the threads at the end of the bolt.
4. Put the locking nut at the end of the bolt.
5. Throw away the pin.
You are done. Total cost, $0.50 - Peace of mind, priceless. |
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