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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:08 am Post subject: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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I am working on a friends '64 VW Beetle engine (my friend is not mechanically inclined - but he knows enough to get in trouble). It is in a buggy...
He just bought it after it has been sitting around for 10+ years. The previous owner has the battery hooked up to be a positive ground.
It is a 6 volt system, and even though I have seen positive ground 6v systems in other cars - I have not seen one in a '64 VW - nor can I find any wiring diagram of a '64 VW of any model that has a positive ground.
I am doubting that the positive should be grounded in this situation. I think the previous owner mixed something up - but now my friend thinks that it is in fact a positive ground, and it is a debate. The engine does run ok, and has points and condenser ignition, however I am installing an electronic set up - so the polarity is important now....
My questions are -
How can I prove that the ground should be negative? or positive?
How would the generator act if the battery positive is wrongly grounded?
If you polarize the generator backwards (meaning hooking battery + to the DF and grounding the D+) will the generator turn CCW? or blow up? |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I cannot make him believe wiring diagrams or what mechanics with more experience than me say...
So I guess I should prepare for what is going to fail.
The engine runs with a battery hooked up backwards - so what should fail first?
He is going to learn the hard way - I guess... |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Actually, I don't know. I know regular coils will work backwards, but I doubt it does them any good. Electronic ignitions probably won't work.
Will it charge that way?
The only thing I know was positivity grounded are some older european cars.
Why not just do it right? Seems like taking on a bunch of headache changing it to a positive ground system for no reward.
Maybe someone with more electrical know how can provide better answers. I just follow the diagrams from VW. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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It is hard to wire a VW for positive ground. The generator and regulator cases are grounded, and isolating them would be problematic. Wipers would run backwards but I bet they won't park correctly that way. A backwards-operating starter would be novel, too.
More likely is the common case where a red cable was used to replace a battery ground cable, making you THINK it's positive ground, when it is not.
But if he insists on that you wire it other than as an original, negative ground system, I'd walk from the job. If you think walking harms a friendship? Wait 'til you see what his car dying, and his blaming YOU, does to it!
The last vehicle I saw that was positive ground was an old '40s Ford tractor that had been hacked with a negative ground for the starter, but positive ground for all else, and of course it had regular starting and charging problems! I rewired it for all negative ground and all was well.
Last edited by KTPhil on Wed May 12, 2021 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dangermouse Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1266 Location: Beautiful New Zealand
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Folks don’t have a lot of luck with 6V points replacement modules anyway as the voltage drop while cranking causes hard starting problems... Pick your battles _________________ Do not follow me, for I may not lead. Do not lead me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either; actually just bugger off and stand over there will you. |
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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Why doesn't he want to change it to the right way is beyond me, but it does in fact run - pretty good actually - with the battery hooked up backwards.
No, the generator does not charge. It has been sitting for over ten years, so maybe the generator has become un-polarized? Maybe if I polarize it, and it works, things may blow up?? Only time will tell...
I am not 'rewiring' the car, and I know the car is wired exactly like all the diagrams indicate - neg ground. But someone along the way made a mistake, and hooked the battery up backwards. Why he insists it is a positive ground is beyond me - but the red wire ground mistake thing is probably it... lol
This is not a "job" - it is a favor. He seems happy to run it like this, and I keep telling him it will fail - so I can't walk away. It's like people watching nascar for the wrecks, I just am curious as to where to look 'for the wreck'...lol
The starter works properly, wipers work too.
I am wondering if I should get a film crew to document this train wreck..?? |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:25 am Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Can you post clear photos of the battery, and the wires connecting to it? Maybe the generator and regulator, too. We might find they key to this problem. |
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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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KTphil - sure.
But it isn't really a problem - because in my friends mind being that the car runs pretty good - he is reluctant to change the battery.
Just too be clear - the car runs good - but battery does not charge - and it runs good with the positive side of the battery grounded. LOL
I assume when the battery gets to a certain state of charge it will no longer run good - and I told him that.. BUT, I just can't reach his brain waves.. lol |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Grounding a positive battery terminal is a great way to cause this:
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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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It runs, generator does not produce voltage (tested with engine running at the D+ and DF terminals of the generator).
Love the pictures!!!!
It's gonna happen - just wondering when... LOL |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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So what are you going to do? Drive around for 8 minutes until the battery can't produce enough voltage to drive the coil?
This is an exercise is jackassery. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Yes, he has connected the positive battery post to ground with the red cable.
I'm not sure where the black cable is connected.. can you trace it? Presume to the starter.
Is the regulator even connected to anything? |
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iowegian Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 9829 Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
So what are you going to do? Drive around for 8 minutes until the battery can't produce enough voltage to drive the coil?
This is an exercise is jackassery. |
Nah-----all he hasta do is take a spare battery along and change 'em out when he runs outa juice. |
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tjoyce81 Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 8 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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This is in deed JACKASSERY! I love that word...
Today I finally got him to reverse the cables and it ran exactly like it ran with the cables wrong. So he put them back to the wrong positions...LOL
He drove it around today with the battery hooked up wrong for about 20 minutes - I tested the battery afterwards and it was holding 6.25 volts... So the battery hasn't died YET - but I know it will eventually...
The black wire goes to the +starter, just like the wire diagram shows...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/61_65bug_mitchell_2.jpg
Somebody along the way (10 years ago) just hooked the battery up to black negative and red positive (maybe an honest mistake) - creating this mess I ran into... If you look close at that diagram, the black wire is positive, then it changes to red after the starter...lol
This may be actually the proof I need to put the electrical system in proper order...lol
But all this craziness aside - thanks for all the replies. |
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sgmalt46 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2005 Posts: 1296 Location: south san francisco
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:24 am Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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let me get this right. he still insist to run it backwards? is he British?
I have seen a battery hooked up backwards years ago. crazy it will
still start and run. if memory serves it fried the voltage regulator .
it kind of acts like a fuse. hook it up the right way negative ground !
try to polarize the generator. if it won't spin get a regulator. maybe
that is why the thing has been sitting around for ten years . the guy
was sick of buying/charging battery's? looks like an honest mistake.
they should never sell red negative cables. stop the jackassery.
the coil will work backwards for a long time before it fry's . I do not remember
what else worked or did not work backwards? must of blown up all the light bulbs? _________________ 55 deluxe 23 window bus
64 crew cab
55 rag top beetle
66 beetle
71 square back (sold) ! good luck with it Henry!
46 beetle 552nd royal army service corps CCG |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31379 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:08 am Post subject: Re: 1964 6 volt + or - ground |
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Cusser wrote: |
Cannot fix stupid or ignorant !!! |
A few years ago someone on The Samba local to me asked me for help for an old VW Beetle he'd just purchased. I agreed to help because he told me he was driving it without tail lights or brake lights.
Once I saw this Beetle and got the lights working, I told him NOT to drive it until he bought and installed the needed/absent tins. Want to guess what happened and what a new engine cost him????
If I ever need to use battery cables - on any vehicle - that are not the correct color, I simply spray paint them to correct color. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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