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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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So I recently added an amr500 to my buggy. It’s a bone stock 1600 sp motor. Pit maybe 500 miles if that since the install. Last night it started knocking at high rpm. Pulled it apart today to find the lobes falling apart. See pics. Anyone experience this or have any idea what would cause it? It was oiled properly no loose or wobbly shafts or bearings that I can feel.
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Maxpower Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009 Posts: 27 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Looks like it got hot and started to delaminate the lobe coating how fast were you spinning it? Was it a draw through or blow through and I have to ask air filter? |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Maxpower wrote: |
Looks like it got hot and started to delaminate the lobe coating how fast were you spinning it? Was it a draw through or blow through and I have to ask air filter? |
Normal operating speed. Nothing crazy. Draw through and running a k&n filter
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Faulty unit?
How many RPM do you rev the motor? _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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they are just cheap Chinese superchargers right? also , what's the ratio of crank and alt pulley, isn't it like 1.5 to 1? and if so that supercharger has to 2 to 1 or more ... _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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The AMR is good for a max of 16,000 rpm if I remember correctly.
Depending on your max rpm that would be a little over 5000 rpm. Doing the math a 2.6:1 ratio would allow you 6000 rpm.
Unfortunately when running a carb and stock distributor you have no way to really tell what AFR or degree advance you are running.
Do you have a boost gauge?
If so how much boost were you running???
More importantly....what were the intake temps at cruise or on boost???
It's not uncommon to see 160 Degree cruising temps or higher. That can happen even when not on boost. Add boost and you can see temps pushing 200 degrees.
8 lbs. boost will add 70 degrees to your ambient temps. So at 80 degrees you can see 150 degrees just with air compression. Now add the temp rise that a blower adds just because....... _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Rockbound wrote: |
So I recently added an amr500 to my buggy. It’s a bone stock 1600 sp motor. Pit maybe 500 miles if that since the install. Last night it started knocking at high rpm. Pulled it apart today to find the lobes falling apart. See pics. Anyone experience this or have any idea what would cause it? It was oiled properly no loose or wobbly shafts or bearings that I can feel.
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...............................................................................................................................from what i under stand about super chargers .is you cant run any more than 24degs total adv. on your distributor . do not lock out your distributor to 24degs it will run like crap .all so super chargers like a real rich main jets never run the main jets that come with your carb . my self i think your carb was running way to lean . that bolt on the in side of your super charger seems to be sticking out way to close to the lobes . all so most super chargers take 90 weight gear oil . you can be thank full that a ar m 500 only cost on ebay from $219.00 to $300.00 to replace just my two cents spencerfvee |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12730 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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I will start by saying that I have zero experiance running superchargers. I am just going to put some questions out there.
First off is that yes, the damage appears to be heat and/or lack of lube related so the questions in my mind are:
How much lube is required and what kind of oil?
Does that requirement change with the engine at light cruise vs under hard acceleration? Is the oil pumped in at a given rate regardless of engine load?
How much heat does a supercharger generate without adequate flow through? As in how hot does it get without enough air/fuel mixture flowing through it for cooling?
Seems to me that the factory street supercharged cars had a system to disconnect the drive or bypass the supercharger for light loads. Is someone familiar with that?
How much damage has been done to the combustion chambers from the missing bits! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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All those bits went into the motor. Not good....
AMR's are self lubricated.
My guess is that you sucked something in that cause damage. Once damaged, it just kept eating itself up. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12730 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Define self lubricated please. Lubricated by what? _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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FarmerBill Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017 Posts: 766 Location: New England
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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I've bought a couple of these and while they look good who knows what's going on with them. They all claim to be off low mileage vehicles , or rebuilt, or both, but are they? or are they being cleaned up at a shop thats the Chinese equivalent of GEX? Also these are generally used on low displacement Asian cars (think 600-1000cc) so they don't have to spin as fast to generate boost on those engines as they do on a 1600cc VW. And lastly I assume the cars these run on are fuel injected, so only air passes through the rotors rather than air/fuel mixture. What does gasoline do to the coating on the rotors? What is the coating made of? Lots of questions with these, but hey they're cheap, get another one, and do an autopsy on the first one. I'd love to know what you find. |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Lo Cash John wrote: |
Faulty unit?
How many RPM do you rev the motor? |
thats what i am hoping for, but i don't know.. no rpm gauge on the motor, but normal operating i was not hammering on it. i get to the point where i should shift and shift. |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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clonebug wrote: |
The AMR is good for a max of 16,000 rpm if I remember correctly.
Depending on your max rpm that would be a little over 5000 rpm. Doing the math a 2.6:1 ratio would allow you 6000 rpm.
Unfortunately when running a carb and stock distributor you have no way to really tell what AFR or degree advance you are running.
Do you have a boost gauge?
If so how much boost were you running???
More importantly....what were the intake temps at cruise or on boost???
It's not uncommon to see 160 Degree cruising temps or higher. That can happen even when not on boost. Add boost and you can see temps pushing 200 degrees.
8 lbs. boost will add 70 degrees to your ambient temps. So at 80 degrees you can see 150 degrees just with air compression. Now add the temp rise that a blower adds just because....... |
i don't know what temps im running, i do not have a temp gauge, may have to look into adding one i guess. |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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[quote="spencerfvee"]
Rockbound wrote: |
So I recently added an amr500 to my buggy. It’s a bone stock 1600 sp motor. Pit maybe 500 miles if that since the install. Last night it started knocking at high rpm. Pulled it apart today to find the lobes falling apart. See pics. Anyone experience this or have any idea what would cause it? It was oiled properly no loose or wobbly shafts or bearings that I can feel.
.........................................from what i under stand about super chargers .is you cant run any more than 24degs total adv. on your distributor . do not lock out your distributor to 24degs it will run like crap .all so super chargers like a real rich main jets never run the main jets that come with your carb . my self i think your carb was running way to lean . that bolt on the in side of your super charger seems to be sticking out way to close to the lobes . all so most super chargers take 90 weight gear oil . you can be thank full that a ar m 500 only cost on ebay from $219.00 to $300.00 to replace just my two cents spencerfvee |
i honestly didnt ever change the timing, it ran perfect the moment i added the supercharger and the larger carb, i did have to mess with the jetting of the carb to get it to run smoot at quick throttle, but it idles and runs perfect. i don't think its a timing issue.. i run the ac deco supercharger oil it was what i was recommended to use.
i did notice that bolt as well, but it does clear, maybe expansion caused it to hit IDK.. ill inspect the new one more carefully.
i think the carb is tuned good, i can try and mess with jetting some more but it runs really good as it is set. |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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oprn wrote: |
I will start by saying that I have zero experiance running superchargers. I am just going to put some questions out there.
First off is that yes, the damage appears to be heat and/or lack of lube related so the questions in my mind are:
How much lube is required and what kind of oil?
Does that requirement change with the engine at light cruise vs under hard acceleration? Is the oil pumped in at a given rate regardless of engine load?
How much heat does a supercharger generate without adequate flow through? As in how hot does it get without enough air/fuel mixture flowing through it for cooling?
Seems to me that the factory street supercharged cars had a system to disconnect the drive or bypass the supercharger for light loads. Is someone familiar with that?
How much damage has been done to the combustion chambers from the missing bits! |
1. 100ml i used ac deco supercharge oil
2.the amr500 is self lubing, you fill it with oil and thats that. there is no pump or oil cycling
3. the air going into the supercharger is cold.. warm coming out not hot. on a 50 degree dat or colder it frosts..
4. no elimination on light loads, this boosts all the time at any load
5. I know right.. engine seems fine without inspection, i would assume that the particles all burned up and got expelled, the particles are almost fiber like i can pick it apart very easily.. nothing metal or hard that i can tell from inspection passed through motor. it did run rough for a few minutes after the supercharger started making knocking noise, i drove it about 10 miles back home felt fine other than the kicking in the supercharger and the lack of boost. |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
All those bits went into the motor. Not good....
AMR's are self lubricated.
My guess is that you sucked something in that cause damage. Once damaged, it just kept eating itself up. |
i was kinda thinking that something got in there too.. i believe the motor is fine the particles are all soft fiberous from what i can pick off and feel. i hope so anyway.. |
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Rockbound Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017 Posts: 303 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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FarmerBill wrote: |
I've bought a couple of these and while they look good who knows what's going on with them. They all claim to be off low mileage vehicles , or rebuilt, or both, but are they? or are they being cleaned up at a shop thats the Chinese equivalent of GEX? Also these are generally used on low displacement Asian cars (think 600-1000cc) so they don't have to spin as fast to generate boost on those engines as they do on a 1600cc VW. And lastly I assume the cars these run on are fuel injected, so only air passes through the rotors rather than air/fuel mixture. What does gasoline do to the coating on the rotors? What is the coating made of? Lots of questions with these, but hey they're cheap, get another one, and do an autopsy on the first one. I'd love to know what you find. |
yeah pretty much what i did.. i was wondering the same thing about the gasoline and lead additive i run. but i see so many on vw motors that i never cam across this issue with all the research i did. no one ever talked about failure or having tis happen. even after the fact i found very minimal info except this one u tube video
https://youtu.be/8e5qJyIfAkM
Guess it could be a combination af a lot of things.. |
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motomwo Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017 Posts: 263 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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A failure to the supercharger like that has nothing to do with your "tune-up" or gasoline quality, etc..
It failed because:
Some foreign object went into the supercharger
Super charger bearing or bearings failed
The helical cut gears wore severely or come loose causing the rotors to loose their timing.
Or a failure of the rotor lobes (cracked, distorted)
Marty _________________ 1961 Bug, 2276 cb wedge ports 44x37 11.1 comp fk10 1.5 rockers 48idf's 1 3/4" header Rancho pro street trans SAW axles Airkewld 4# narrowed beam, Koni shocks, Airkewld dis brake all around. 5.5/4.5 BRMs
1966 Bug, 2127, panchito heads, fk8, 1.3 rockers, dual 44idfs, 1 5/8 merge header, Rancho pro strt flyer, empi axles, Airkewld's 4" beam and discs all around and adjustable shocks. 4.5 & 5.5 BRMs |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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Rockbound wrote: |
Maxpower wrote: |
Looks like it got hot and started to delaminate the lobe coating how fast were you spinning it? Was it a draw through or blow through and I have to ask air filter? |
Normal operating speed. Nothing crazy. Draw through and running a k&n filter
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...........................i am looking at your motor its a first class build every thing is spotless .on that motor. its seems hard for me to think that left some ting in the intake manifold i am sure you would know if a part would have fallen off into the intake manifold . i see your running a 32ndix carb the only thing that might have fallen off into the intake manifold would be the bottom carb gasket i am sure your running a open plenum manifold did you use a open plenum gasket. ?? i have seen this happen on motors that ran open plenum manifolds with the wrong gasket and it got sucked into there motor .just trying to help you out on what happen to you super charger so it does not happen again . i could be wrong just some thing to think about all so your intake manifold where the carb bolts on . looks to me to be way to thin. to hold the gasket in place . it could be your photo but it looks
bent in in the middle of where the carb bolts on to the intake manifold i could be wrong on that too spencerfvee |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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oprn wrote: |
Define self lubricated please. Lubricated by what? |
the shaft bearings are sealed and lubed on the AMR. (as best I can tell anyways, I may be wrong there). I don't see any provisions for adding oil or grease. They appear to be sealed bearings. As such, they have limited life, just like a belt tensioner.
Pretty common for super chargers to get oil feed from the engine oil (and drain) to lube the bearings.
Or, they have gear oil in them for the same job.
Big V8 superchargers have issues with heat. this is why putting a carburetor on top is a good idea. The fuel cools and lubes the rotors and apex seals. (not sure if the AMR has apex seals). I know the popular Weiand blowers don't have apex seals, but they don't make much boost. More for the look than the performance.
If they get too hot, the rotors will grow and contact the housing. That's bad un-kay.
Top fuel super chargers don't get much lube. After the run, a few oz of oil is injected into the supercharger as it winds down to help preserve it (white cloud of smoke seen after a pass). |
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