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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| Rockbound wrote: |
| Maxpower wrote: |
| Looks like it got hot and started to delaminate the lobe coating how fast were you spinning it? Was it a draw through or blow through and I have to ask air filter? |
Normal operating speed. Nothing crazy. Draw through and running a k&n filter
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...........................i am looking at your motor its a first class build every thing is spotless .on that motor. its seems hard for me to think that left some ting in the intake manifold i am sure you would know if a part would have fallen off into the intake manifold . i see your running a 32ndix carb the only thing that might have fallen off into the intake manifold would be the bottom carb gasket i am sure your running a open plenum manifold did you use a open plenum gasket. ?? i have seen this happen on motors that ran open plenum manifolds with the wrong gasket and it got sucked into there motor .just trying to help you out on what happen to you super charger so it does not happen again . i could be wrong just some thing to think about all so your intake manifold where the carb bolts on . looks to me to be way to thin. to hold the gasket in place . it could be your photo but it looks
bent in in the middle of where the carb bolts on to the intake manifold i could be wrong on that too spencerfvee |
thank you for the kind words on the build i appreciate that, and your help! I made sure the intakes where all cleaned out doesn't mean that a weld spald or something broke loose or was missed, its hard to say i built intake tubes myself i def could have missed some foreign object i guess, anything is possible.. i made my own gaskets out of gasket material, i will inspect the tonight when i get home, i don't think any of the gaskets was missing though when i took it apart. the plate is 1/4" flat bar after we welded the pip to it we hit it on the disc sander to make sure it was flat, i think is perspective in the picture, or paint imperfections, i did not paint the gasket side.
here is a pic closer up after primed
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| are the lobes coated?? possiaby they were afu when remanufactured and then recoated with somethen....send it back or replace but remember that shit wehnt into you heads& cylinders rings valve seats&faces&chamber....just sayen.in theroy the lobes should never tuch each other. Ive done a good few supercharges in my day, but never messed with the amr 500 stuff. is it directional?? |
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| are the lobes coated?? possiaby they were afu when remanufactured and then recoated with somethen....send it back or replace but remember that shit wehnt into you heads& cylinders rings valve seats&faces&chamber....just sayen.in theroy the lobes should never tuch each other. Ive done a good few supercharges in my day, but never messed with the amr 500 stuff. is it directional?? |
yes the lobes are coated, thats what appears to have come apart. I have no idea what the coating is but it feels almost like dense gasket material. i can peal it apart and break it up in my hands |
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FarmerBill
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017
Posts: 767
Location: New England
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| X2 on cleaning the debris out of the top end. You sure don’t want any of that crap in your valves or rings. Hopefully it’s soft enough it didn’t do any damage. I’m guessing that it just delaminated, maybe caused by a foreign object, maybe not. The centrifugal force trying to pull that coating off those rotors is huge. One little crack or lifted spot and it’s game over. |
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TinCanFab
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 2743
Location: Waterford, California
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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I have 2 used AMR500's that came from eBay Japan. They were really cheap, even before they started selling the knock off Chinese ones. My guess is that the castings are a really good copy, but the lobe coating process is not exactly the same as the original Aisin version. If nothing fell down the intake, that's really short mileage for it to come apart. Looking at your setup, the blower pulley is big and RPM's should be well under the limit. I haven't ran my AMR engine yet, but I installed a Marvel Mystery oiler so there will be some lubricity to the fuel/air mixture. This is the second Chinese blower I've seen do this, a little oil vapor blowing around inside seems like a good idea. This ethanol fuel we have seems extremely dry.
_________________
Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| Rockbound wrote: |
| spencerfvee wrote: |
| Rockbound wrote: |
| Maxpower wrote: |
| Looks like it got hot and started to delaminate the lobe coating how fast were you spinning it? Was it a draw through or blow through and I have to ask air filter? |
Normal operating speed. Nothing crazy. Draw through and running a k&n filter
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...........................i am looking at your motor its a first class build every thing is spotless .on that motor. its seems hard for me to think that left some ting in the intake manifold i am sure you would know if a part would have fallen off into the intake manifold . i see your running a 32ndix carb the only thing that might have fallen off into the intake manifold would be the bottom carb gasket i am sure your running a open plenum manifold did you use a open plenum gasket. ?? i have seen this happen on motors that ran open plenum manifolds with the wrong gasket and it got sucked into there motor .just trying to help you out on what happen to you super charger so it does not happen again . i could be wrong just some thing to think about all so your intake manifold where the carb bolts on . looks to me to be way to thin. to hold the gasket in place . it could be your photo but it looks
bent in in the middle of where the carb bolts on to the intake manifold i could be wrong on that too spencerfvee |
thank you for the kind words on the build i appreciate that, and your help! I made sure the intakes where all cleaned out doesn't mean that a weld spald or something broke loose or was missed, its hard to say i built intake tubes myself i def could have missed some foreign object i guess, anything is possible.. i made my own gaskets out of gasket material, i will inspect the tonight when i get home, i don't think any of the gaskets was missing though when i took it apart. the plate is 1/4" flat bar after we welded the pip to it we hit it on the disc sander to make sure it was flat, i think is perspective in the picture, or paint imperfections, i did not paint the gasket side.
here is a pic closer up after primed
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....................................................................................................................i just knew .you were not a person to slap a motor together and wish it well. i could tell . that you would built a motor the wright way. being that said .after reading what others have posted . i very much feal this was not your doing . and that you did nothing wrong on building your motor . i realy think you bought a bad super charger . that was junk . after reading the post from a samba member tincanfab he said that he has seen this happen to. to 2 other super chargers .i know you dont want to hear this but please pull your motor and take both heads off to make sure there no damage to your heads a cyls. doing this might save any more damage to your motor . the only thing is taking the time to make sure your great looking motor is safe from damage .any one who has built motors has had. at one time some thing go wrong . and had to take a just built motor apart . i have more than once good luck spencerfvee |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12743
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| Ohio Tom wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
| Define self lubricated please. Lubricated by what? |
the shaft bearings are sealed and lubed on the AMR. (as best I can tell anyways, I may be wrong there). I don't see any provisions for adding oil or grease. They appear to be sealed bearings. As such, they have limited life, just like a belt tensioner.
Pretty common for super chargers to get oil feed from the engine oil (and drain) to lube the bearings.
Or, they have gear oil in them for the same job.
Big V8 superchargers have issues with heat. this is why putting a carburetor on top is a good idea. The fuel cools and lubes the rotors and apex seals. (not sure if the AMR has apex seals). I know the popular Weiand blowers don't have apex seals, but they don't make much boost. More for the look than the performance.
If they get too hot, the rotors will grow and contact the housing. That's bad un-kay.
Top fuel super chargers don't get much lube. After the run, a few oz of oil is injected into the supercharger as it winds down to help preserve it (white cloud of smoke seen after a pass). |
| TinCanFab wrote: |
| I have 2 used AMR500's that came from eBay Japan. They were really cheap, even before they started selling the knock off Chinese ones. My guess is that the castings are a really good copy, but the lobe coating process is not exactly the same as the original Aisin version. If nothing fell down the intake, that's really short mileage for it to come apart. Looking at your setup, the blower pulley is big and RPM's should be well under the limit. I haven't ran my AMR engine yet, but I installed a Marvel Mystery oiler so there will be some lubricity to the fuel/air mixture. This is the second Chinese blower I've seen do this, a little oil vapor blowing around inside seems like a good idea. This ethanol fuel we have seems extremely dry. |
Yes I know the gearbox has it's own lube. It's the rotors I was wondering about. Like I said previously I have zero experiance running superchargers but thought I remembered them needing rotor lube.
My questions come from a gas compression background where we used axial twin rotor compressors. These definitely have to have rotor lube or they will heat up and seize. The other thing that happens to them is under light loads they get too hot because there isn't enough gas flowing through them to cool the rotors. That was why I was questioning the part throttle/light cruise lube situation.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| oprn wrote: |
| Ohio Tom wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
| Define self lubricated please. Lubricated by what? |
the shaft bearings are sealed and lubed on the AMR. (as best I can tell anyways, I may be wrong there). I don't see any provisions for adding oil or grease. They appear to be sealed bearings. As such, they have limited life, just like a belt tensioner.
Pretty common for super chargers to get oil feed from the engine oil (and drain) to lube the bearings.
Or, they have gear oil in them for the same job.
Big V8 superchargers have issues with heat. this is why putting a carburetor on top is a good idea. The fuel cools and lubes the rotors and apex seals. (not sure if the AMR has apex seals). I know the popular Weiand blowers don't have apex seals, but they don't make much boost. More for the look than the performance.
If they get too hot, the rotors will grow and contact the housing. That's bad un-kay.
Top fuel super chargers don't get much lube. After the run, a few oz of oil is injected into the supercharger as it winds down to help preserve it (white cloud of smoke seen after a pass). |
| TinCanFab wrote: |
| I have 2 used AMR500's that came from eBay Japan. They were really cheap, even before they started selling the knock off Chinese ones. My guess is that the castings are a really good copy, but the lobe coating process is not exactly the same as the original Aisin version. If nothing fell down the intake, that's really short mileage for it to come apart. Looking at your setup, the blower pulley is big and RPM's should be well under the limit. I haven't ran my AMR engine yet, but I installed a Marvel Mystery oiler so there will be some lubricity to the fuel/air mixture. This is the second Chinese blower I've seen do this, a little oil vapor blowing around inside seems like a good idea. This ethanol fuel we have seems extremely dry. |
Yes I know the gearbox has it's own lube. It's the rotors I was wondering about. Like I said previously I have zero experiance running superchargers but thought I remembered them needing rotor lube.
My questions come from a gas compression background where we used axial twin rotor compressors. These definitely have to have rotor lube or they will heat up and seize. The other thing that happens to them is under light loads they get too hot because there isn't enough gas flowing through them to cool the rotors. That was why I was questioning the part throttle/light cruise lube situation. |
............................................................................................................i too am new to super chargers . but i have been reading about them and talking to people that have run super chargers . the rotors never make contack with each other. if there set up right .the only cantack a roto would have is on the both sides that make contack with the blower housing . from talking to people they use no lube for the rotors inside the blower housing .this is my dick landy super charger . and no where do they say to use lube for the rotor on there super chager spencerfvee ps click on photos to make them larger
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FarmerBill
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017
Posts: 767
Location: New England
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| oprn wrote: |
Yes I know the gearbox has it's own lube. It's the rotors I was wondering about. Like I said previously I have zero experiance running superchargers but thought I remembered them needing rotor lube.
My questions come from a gas compression background where we used axial twin rotor compressors. These definitely have to have rotor lube or they will heat up and seize. The other thing that happens to them is under light loads they get too hot because there isn't enough gas flowing through them to cool the rotors. That was why I was questioning the part throttle/light cruise lube situation. |
I know the Judson superchargers (and maybe the Pepcos?) are supposed to have an oiler for the rotors. Some blowers need an oiler, some don’t, depends on the construction. Judson’s are a single rotor with four vanes so they won’t work long without an oiler. It would be nice to see a picture of these AMR units in their stock configuration bolted to their original engines. Also would be nice to know all the specs, like how hot can the unit get? What level of filtration does the air need? And so on. I read on another forum, (can’t remember which one, a Datsun one maybe?)some guy claiming that all the AMR blowers were originally mounted with an intercooler. Who knows? Maybe these things need to have an intercooler, maybe a Marvel or Ampco oiler would help, an intercooler certainly couldn’t hurt, but is it necessary? Lots of questions. Some day I’ll carve out some time to search the internet for answers, just so time consuming to separate the truth from the BS. |
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| well the new unit comes today, i took the intake off and all the tubes and valves look clear, either the stuff is down in the cylinders or it burned up and shot out.. going to mount it all back up and see how it goes.. really hoping this was an isolated incident and or a bad supercharger..from all the posts ive read and videos ive watch, i really haven't seen anything like this regarding this supercharger failing on a vw motor how i have it configured.. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| atleast pull the plugs and have a look...and good luck!!! Dont forget to have fun while you at it. |
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| atleast pull the plugs and have a look...and good luck!!! Dont forget to have fun while you at it. |
lol nothing but fun!  |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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rock bound .i am happy you got a new super charger on its way to you i hope it works . i thought you would like to see some of my super chargers i have had over the years . the one is a pepco super charger the other super charger was on my friend drag car it ran in the mid. 12s in the 1/4 mile i bought it off of him the pepco i ran on a engine stand it sounded good a friend saw it and had to have it .over the years i had a lot of judson super chargers and one sure rock super chargers take care spencerfvee
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
rock bound .i am happy you got a new super charger on its way to you i hope it works . i thought you would like to see some of my super chargers i have had over the years . the one is a pepco super charger the other super charger was on my friend drag car it ran in the mid. 12s in the 1/4 mile i bought it off of him the pepco i ran on a engine stand it sounded good a friend saw it and had to have it .over the years i had a lot of judson super chargers and one sure rock super chargers take care spencerfvee
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very cool, im sure those are all better quality made than this unit. |
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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so update time,
the new supercharger came, its in, and running great. however it was not as easy as i was hoping it would be.
The new supercharger was a bit different than the 1st one, i am pretty sure i got a cheap knock off unit the first time. the 2nd unit looks to be much better quality, there are no coatings on the lobes. the lobes are completely different and the lower mounting hole was in a different location so i had to remake a new mount to install this unit.. luckily all my intake pipes lined up and still worked. so modifying my old mount bracket was the only thing i had to change and that didnt take that long.
This unit feels WAY cooler than the other unit, after about 5 min of just idling the old unit was VERY hot to touch, running it made no change really in temp it was just HOT all the time, this unit after driving 15min was warm, let it idle for 10 min and no change in temp, just warm to feel.. not sure why the difference, i used the same amount and type of oil. i wasnt sure how hot these things ran so assumed the original was ok to be hot i didnt know better.. and still really don't know what temp it was or should be at..
all in all i feel i got a cheap unit that either was defective or over heated or just plain CHEAP, possibly overheated because of defection and cheapness.. IDK for sure but i feel much more confident with this new unit below are some pics of the 2 units notice the lobe differences, one has a coating the other seams to have a edge, one has a pin the other doesn't, one is all metal, at least it feels that way, the other is some sort of teflon coating that blew apart, fill plug in different locations and mount holes in different location at the what i am using as the bottom of the supercharger.
at this point i would say i would never use the first unit if thats what showed up at my door again, send it back! we will see how long this new one lasts.
thanks for everyones input and help i will keep updating the new unit.
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| Rockbound wrote: |
so update time,
the new supercharger came, its in, and running great. however it was not as easy as i was hoping it would be.
The new supercharger was a bit different than the 1st one, i am pretty sure i got a cheap knock off unit the first time. the 2nd unit looks to be much better quality, there are no coatings on the lobes. the lobes are completely different and the lower mounting hole was in a different location so i had to remake a new mount to install this unit.. luckily all my intake pipes lined up and still worked. so modifying my old mount bracket was the only thing i had to change and that didnt take that long.
This unit feels WAY cooler than the other unit, after about 5 min of just idling the old unit was VERY hot to touch, running it made no change really in temp it was just HOT all the time, this unit after driving 15min was warm, let it idle for 10 min and no change in temp, just warm to feel.. not sure why the difference, i used the same amount and type of oil. i wasnt sure how hot these things ran so assumed the original was ok to be hot i didnt know better.. and still really don't know what temp it was or should be at..
all in all i feel i got a cheap unit that either was defective or over heated or just plain CHEAP, possibly overheated because of defection and cheapness.. IDK for sure but i feel much more confident with this new unit below are some pics of the 2 units notice the lobe differences, one has a coating the other seams to have a edge, one has a pin the other doesn't, one is all metal, at least it feels that way, the other is some sort of teflon coating that blew apart, fill plug in different locations and mount holes in different location at the what i am using as the bottom of the supercharger.
at this point i would say i would never use the first unit if thats what showed up at my door again, send it back! we will see how long this new one lasts.
thanks for everyones input and help i will keep updating the new unit.
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hi great you got it back together . would you mind if i asked you where you got your new arm 500 super charger from ? i would like to buy one but i dont want to get a bad one . thanks please post photos of your new super charger i want to see how you made the new mount for your new super charger many thanks spencerfvee |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12743
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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It would be very interesting to get some instrumentation on that engine and track intake pressures and temperatures at various engine loads.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| oprn wrote: |
| It would be very interesting to get some instrumentation on that engine and track intake pressures and temperatures at various engine loads. |
yeah, i am going to have to come up with some gauges. need to search how and where to install a boost and pyro gauge at least. |
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Rockbound
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2017
Posts: 303
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| hi great you got it back together . would you mind if i asked you where you got your new arm 500 super charger from ? i would like to buy one but i dont want to get a bad one . thanks please post photos of your new super charger i want to see how you made the new mount for your new super charger many thanks spencerfvee |
basically the same mount, the bottom mounting point on my old super charger was in direct line vertically of the pulley shafts, the new one was kinda offset, i actually used the old mount but cut it at the bottom and opened it up then re welded the gap and plated the side of it to reinforce it.
i bought both of them on amazon but from different sellers.
the good unit came from motofansclub store
not really sure where the other unit came from to old to get any info
my build for the entire buggy is here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=686076
the supercharger specifically starts on page 9 |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Amr500 failure what could cause this? Pics |
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pinning the shafts is a good idea...if done properly.but they should be fine.
eye wood add a inner-cooler to it..more hp as well as much better for the engine. |
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