Front kick panel speakers. What’s the best high end available???

[ROCKET]

Looking for advice from an car audio guy....looking for the best sounding front speakers to go into front kick panel. Not into doors...78 westy
I am using 5 or 6 inch round now.[/img]

[skills@eurocarsplus]

considering your feet don't have ears you have to ask yourself what are you trying to achieve.

i have put a high quality center speaker in the stock location and it really makes a huge difference. you're limited by size on the late buses but early bay's i own get a 6x9 wired as a center channel and they are amazing
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[secretsubmariner]

I found a ton of threads about this very topic,
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly

And this thread in particular caught my eye

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=188489&highlight=speakers
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-Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI

[vwwestyman]

[richparker]

I have been thinking of adding a speaker to the dash, I currently only have them in my doors. But, I use a Dashmat and feel that it could muffle the sound. Anyone use a dash speaker with a Dashmat? If so, how’s the sound?
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’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build

[Cap10323]

Take my advice, replace the stock center speaker with a high quality replacement. You will be blown away by how well it works. Seriously.

The sound comes out of the speaker, and bounces off of the inside of the windshield. Which allows you to hear the sound from the radio even when driving on the highway with the windows down. It's pretty great.

Putting speakers down in the footwells doesn't work well as I discovered. You can't really hear anything because the sound is overpowered by the road noise below and wind noise above.
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-Ian

'77 Westfalia - 2.0 F.I

[richparker]

Think I could be interested in giving a 6x9 a chance, it would be nice to have some increased sound. Is there a particular magnet depth I should be looking for and what’s the best way to mount it?

If my Dashmat muffles the sound too much, maybe I can put some holes into it to let the sound through.
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’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build

[ivwshane]

I already have speakers in the footwell area, can I or how would I also utilize a center dash speaker? If it matters, I also have rear speakers. Could I piggyback off of the left/right terminals on the head unit? Or would sound quality be diminished?
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77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab

[richparker]

[vwwestyman]

Run a wire from the positive side of both the left and right channels to the speaker. One of the wires to the center speaker's positive and one to the center speaker's negative.

I did this in both of my Buses.

I used an L-pad to control the volume of the center speaker. I have it turned up for talk/podcasts and sometimes turn it down a little if I want more stereo separation for music. But that's not strictly necessary by any means. L-pad is mounted in the glove box so it's out of sight.
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[ivwshane]

What about adding a dual voice coil speaker and just wiring up each coil to its respective left and right speaker? Of course there probably isn’t a dual voice coil speaker that small.
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77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab

[vwwestyman]

One could certainly do that, too. Though I doubt you'd notice any stereo separation so it might not be worthwhile.

I'm pretty sure Retrosound sells some and in smaller sizes.
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[ivwshane]

The main reason for using a center speaker would be to get more direct sound to my ears. Stereo separation would be nice but it’s not the main factor.
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77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab

[raygreenwood]

First….I WILL answer your exact question…..but first I am going to yammer a bit. I have built a lot of stereos over the years and have learned a lot about systems and am learning more all the time.

Yes….you CAN get really good sound out of just two speakers.

Yes….it will be a problem that you are using just two speakers in one end of a big noisy uninsulated metal box. But…that can be gotten around….compensated for…if you are willing to work at it. That does not necessarily mean spend extra money on it.

Understand….people ho drive Miatas, Porsche 914 and 911, compact pickups…any type of small cockpit two seater….can and do get killer sound out of a two channel unit with two speakers or even a four channel unit with all four speaker up front.

But it takes a little planning and technique.

Yes…as Skills noted….playing speakers toward your knees can be an issue…but a fair portion of that is easily fixed.

Its not JUST what level (low to high) that a speaker is located….its what direction the apex of it cone is pointed.

You can have speakers at FLOOR level….that have sound SUPERB…..IF…they are angled upwards toward your ears as much as possible. If you can get them pointed dead on at your head….it becomes a simple matter of having an efficient speaker that can handle enough power to make up the distance. Speakers are parabolic dishes (somewhat). They have a focal point and an angle of sound radiation.

First….no matter whether you have two speakers (but especially if you have only two speakers)…get them as large as you can get. Typically I do not use anything less than 6”.

Over the eons…specially 70’s and 80’s we had all of the factories stupidly putting special grills into dashes in each corner to cram in 3.5” average and 4” at best…which are generally only capable of highs and upper mid-range….which is good…midrange make for good round fill and clear lyrics….but is not enough to classify as a “channel” on its own. They should be connected with a woofer…bare minimum of 5”. You can find 5.25”…and occasionally up to 5.75”. If you are getting that big just find a 6”.

The reason these small differences….make a difference is that with virtually every speaker…even down in the 4” sizes….you will lose a bare minimum of 0.75” to 1” just for the foam or rubber spring edge. So a 4” speaker is really a 3” speaker. A 5” speaker is really a 4” speaker.

In the 6” world…I usually looks for 6.5” and what are called “oversized”…which are 6.75”. These produce the very best “normal” base and the highest volume midrange.

If you must go with an “oval speaker”….the 6” x 8” are better more accurate sound than a 6” x 9”. This is because the ratio of length to width is closer to round…cleaner radii and less cone distortion. It makes a BIG difference. In order of good-ness for ovals….

1. 6” x 8” (1:1.33 length to width ratio)

2. 5” x 7” (1: 1.4 length to width ratio)

3. 6” x 9” and 4” X 6” (both have 1: 1.5 length to width ratio).

Stay away from coaxial and triaxial speakers. Not that there are not some excellent ones…but the midranges are far too small to be really effective and they block sound. Buy component sets.

They usually come with something like a 6”, 6.5” or 6.75” speaker and a 1.25” to 2” tweeter and a crossover. Watch the specs on the crossovers. They will either be good or suck. Not much in between. You can easily build a good crossover for about $20 with a soldering iron and stuff from Radio shack/Hobby town. Plenty of plans on line.

This way you can mount your speakers down low if that’s what you are stuck with and put the tweeter up high. Nice separation.

The VERY best 4” x 6” oval speaker I have ever found was a Polk Audio 4” X 6” “plate” with a separate 3” mid and a 1” tweeter with a built-in crossover and rubber surrounds.

Buy speakers with the highest efficiency you can get. When you find a component set you like…go to YouTube and punch in its name and series and MANY test reviews will pop up. A lot of speakers these days list specs they cannot actually meet. I will explain efficiency and wattage versus decibel rating calculation later. Its important.

Also…being made in the US is NOT a guarantee of any quality at all except for a few items in car stereo….like certain Rockford Fosgate amp systems and companies like Audi control

https://www.audiocontrol.com/

There are some superb Chinese made components. But with car audio…it about three things ….Design of speaker…materials….and workmanship. You can end up with varying degrees of each or only one or two of each. A lot of Chinese made speakers building components for big names…have excellent material and workmanship….but poor design and specification. Some have excellent design and spec…and great workmanship but are made of cheap materials.

There are a lot of Asian made speakers that have enough of all three that you cannot TELL that they are made in Asia.

OK….for the speaker down by your knees angle thing….you can fix more than one problem this way. Lets say it sucks having your speakers down playing to your knees. And…you cannot fit more than say a 4.5” to 5” speaker in there. Let’s say you want to put in a 6” speaker.

So….you need what is called a surface mount tray or angled speaker mount. It’s actually called a lot of things but that’s what I call it. You make a hole in the door panel for a 4” speaker.

Then get yourself a nice block of wood…about 1.5” thick. Personally, if you need/want to make your own I would start out with nice hardwood so it will stay flat and you can paint or stain it. For a 6” speaker it will probably need to be about 6.5” x 6.5”

If you are not crafty with a sander and grinder and wood shaping….take these two block down to a wood shop and tell them you want one thing done to each. You want then either planed or band-sawed at a diagonal….in a diamond pattern….say when looking at the drivers door speaker…..from the lower right corner to the upper left corner. Let me visually splain….

You can grind and sand the wood to any shape you want to fit the door edge and whatever you think you can work with and not ding against or hit with your feet.

Or....you can also buy an endless range of surface mount cups….speaker spacers…whatever you want to call them Cones or shells to assist in this.

Shop around on reviews and materials. Some can rattle and buzz. Here I just a visual selection of the thousands out there. You can also cover these with carpet, veneer, trunk liner, dynamat….all sorts of things.

I have even made some out of sheet metal for the back seat of my old 412….that allowed the speaker to point upward at a 45 degree angle, forward at 45*…and were below flush. It was a “Z” shaped plate with a hole in it behind the card inlay.

This stuff does not take that much “work” per-se….but it takes a lot of thought and measuring to not do things half assed or three times.

When you tell us what size of speaker you think you can use and what kind of music or sound you expect to hear…I will recommend some brands and models and post links.
Ray

[ivwshane]

I already have speakers that came with the bus, some 6” pioneer (I’m pretty sure they are coaxial though). I have them mounted to ABS kick panels which seems to hold them fine.

I’ve purchased some infinity reference speakers for my other car and they sound great. It was the first speaker I purchased based on efficiency (I think it’s ~93%), so I think that’s definitely the spec to look at.

I guess I could go for something that would lean more towards the highs like a tweeter for the center since high frequency sounds tend to be more directional and with the windshield should help redirect the sound to me.
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77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab

[raygreenwood]

Really .....if one is "shopping" for speakers ....we really just should have a short discussion of what sound parameters mean.....like efficiency, rms and peak/dynamic power handling....decibels per meter......AT WHAT WATTAGE......and the reproduced frequency ranges.....and one thing never mentioned by almost any speaker mfg....and this is where reviews really come in......is how many decibels of sound in each frequency range the speaker you are shopping produces.

This all goes back......just like building an engine.....to when one asks....."what do I need to do to build X engine?".....and the forum fires back....."how are you going to be using/driving it?"

Same thing. What kind of music do you listen to and how do you listen to it?

Meaning......is it mostly music....and if so....is it music with:
Electronic instruments .....symphonic/string/horn instruments......style?....dance/electronic....classical....hard rock.....pop....rap/R&B....what?


These questions are not stupid. There is no such thing as "high end" by brand. I have heard superb speakers ....and absolute shit speakers.....in every brand. This is because virtually every brand makes a RANGE of pricing based on build quality......and they make a range of speakers based on spectrum of sound said speaker is designed to reproduce (i.e....sub-base, mid base, full range, upper full range/mid tweeter, tweeter)

And.....each of these works best when "FED" a specific way.....wattage...signal quality....filtering to remove sound frequency spectrum they cannot cleanly play......AND/or....pairing/grouping the speaker with other speakers that CAN play those frequencies...........and very importantly.......at what decibel level you normally listen to your music at......and what you might occasionally listen to it at. You have to have capacitu for that occasional sound level and not just your daily level. And.....you have to have sound capacity....at both of those levels.....for the TYPE of music you listen to.

Meaning......for example......if you listen to general "pop" music.....which could come from 70s, 80, 90s and now.......the 70s and until mid to late 80s will be mostly "analog". Its high in midrange/low in base. So....it less frequently has "dynamic", low frequency base spikes that tax both your stereo amplifier or speakers. So.....when listening to music at its max decibel capability (defined by a combination of the speaker efficiency and wattage you feed to it)....you get less of those music spikes that drive both speaker and amp into the distortion and clipping levels that tear things up and make crappy sound.

Late 80s through 90s.....more digital recording which can lead to a wider frequency range....more toward sub-base and higher frequencies....less midrange. In the digital era now.....new music is almost all digital recording and using lots of synthetic instruments. It plays poorly on speakers built like we had in the 70s and early 80s....because they canjot produce the full sound range available without distortion.......or......are designed (shape and materials wise)......to reproduce mainly in the mid range for the analog sound quality of the era they were in.

Materials......do not get hung up in issues like ....."super premium....rubber cone surround . Back in the 70s and 80s.....that WAS a big deal because the foam and treated paper edge suspension materials were simply not as good so rubber surrounds of any kind were better and lived longer in heat and sun and moisture.

High end speakers for high volume music back in the day.....had long throws or excursions. It was mainly the flexing and the glue joint that killed the cone suspension system. The foam they used to use got crispy....and then cracked.....so rubber was always deemed better......
Thats not the case anymore.

The problem with rubber surrounds is that they are stiffer.....so they prevent/limit some of the finer more delicate vibrations.....needed to produce sounds from say....string instruments in accoustic pieces or classical music. Simply put .....a well built foam surround will vibrate quicker and more accurately.

If you buy a high end modern speaker that does have rubber surrounds.....and it does have superb delicate sound reproduction......its because they worked hard on the DESIGN and/or have probably designed it for pairing with other speakers in a component set.

But if you are going with only two speakers.....you are looking for full range speakers. They need to be big.....to produce volume and base.....and they need to be efficient to produce the full range of frequency and the volume......and they need to be well built to not lose out on delicate sound reproduction.....so I would go with foam surrounds and just keep them out of direct sunlight as much as possible. And....that last detail can be done with a simple piece of sound transparent cloth or fiber mesh inside the grill. It's cheap. Only a couple of bucks.

Sorry to drag out so much info......but......if really good sound is what you want.....the less speakers and equipment you are allowed to have due to installation requirements......the better the design and quality they have to be.

Its no different than building an engine. If you want more speed and quickness and there is no budget, physical size or other limitations......just build one with larger cubic inches. And as long as the size is not extreme.....the build can be simpler and less finess has to be invested. You could simply move from a four cylinder to a six cylinder.
But if you are forced to stay very small in engine size......you need to really finesse what little you have. Its going to be operating close to the ragged edge so build quality and parts selection will be critical.

Ray

[ImAddicted]

Ahhh. Sound science . Ray has valid points. When it comes to high frequency sounds, the less reflection you have, the better off you are. HFs transfer more energy into the medium - be it the air it is passing through, a windshield, or your Levi 501s - vs low frequencies (There's a reason why fog horns are low pitch). The less obstructions, less energy loss, the better you can hear them. Additionally, you need to take into consideration the "cancelling" of sound waves by harmonics naturally being produced inside a noisy 40+ year old bus.

While car audio is not my area of knowledge, I did my Masters thesis on leveraging the facial structure of nocturnal owls for long-range listening devices (pre-laser). Owls have asymmetrical ear apertures that are in the front of the face, that dish shaped face is basically a natural, tunable parabolic reflector, as well as the ability to alter the shape of their face - and several species can also individually change the orientation of individual facial feathers to direct sound - using the reflected sound energy as well as Doppler shifting between the asymmetrical ear locations. They can not only determine the direction of the sound source, but the size and distance of the prey based off the amplitude and frequency of the resulting sounds from movement. Stronger high frequency sounds: closer, stronger low frequency sounds: greater distance. By shifting the direction of their head, they can then determine by reflection not only where the prey is, but the size of the obstacles in their path. Higher frequency sound waves are more compact and a smaller wavelength, making them more directional than low frequency sounds with a larger wavelength. Amazing animals.

Likewise, emergency sirens are heavy on the low frequency segment of the dual- or tri-tone combination as it reaches further, less affected by Doppler effect, and less affected by obstructions, while the higher frequencies are greatly affected by DE, helping you recognize the speed and distance of the emergency vehicle's approach to your location.

How does this apply to car audio? Low frequency speakers can be placed further away and less directional than mids and highs, with less power than high frequency speakers, and anything that is obstructing the sound waves will degrade the sound.

Now that I typed all that out, I have no clue what my original point was outside of the last paragraph. Not sure if I was helpful or not, lol.
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1979 Transporter (sold)
KC1MUR

[vwwestyman]

I don't think I have anything else to add to the sound/speaker discussion other than I find it interesting.

But I was delighted to see 4 or 5 fledgling barred owls (I'm pretty sure they were barred) practicing flight in my and my neighbor's yards this week. The tree in my front yard has a good sized hollow and I hope one of them decides it looks like a nice place to live.
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Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[ImAddicted]

[richparker]

So, today I installed a 4 way 5x7 speaker in my dash. I pulled the glovebox and the stereo to give me some room to work. I search thesamba for ideas, then took some measurements. I made a bracket out of scrap wood to hold the speaker, mounted the speaker and installed it. Everything fit the first time and I was stoked. Wifey and I went for a cruise to see if we could notice a difference and we noticed the difference right off the bat. The sound was crisper, cleaner and we didn’t have to raise the volume as high. We started with the Dashmat off and half way through we put it on to see if we noticed a difference in the sound. We were both surprised that it sounded just about as good with the Dashmat on. Winning!

I’m no woodworker, that’s for sure.

Here it is installed, check out how shallow my head unit is. No CD player, just AM/FM and Bluetooth. I use a Sportster 4 SiriusXM unit with a FM modulator and mostly listen to that.

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’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build