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you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles
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spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

how would you build a stock type1 vw motor to last 200,000 miles that would give you good HP. and mileage. what parts would you use? / what kind of vw case ? what kind of heads single port or dual port? what kind of cam ? would you use headers ? stock carb or after market ? my self the single port 1500cc motors lasted longer than the 1600cc motors . the vw fuel injected heads with the small valves from a 75 bug . might last longer because of the small valves spencerfvee

Last edited by spencerfvee on Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

90.5 or thickwall 88 pistons
Stock crank, CB 69.5 or 74 crank
Very mild cam along the lines of a cheater/2280, maybe split with slightly more duration and lift on the intake
Dual port heads, ported intakes
Stock heater boxes or the "high flow" ones, or j-tubes
Merged header with single muffler, hideaway style?
Dual 36IDF or 36 Dells
Programmable ignition, black box, Daytona TCS, 123, etc
26mm oil pump, full flow filtration
Stock shroud
Stock oil cooler
Extra holes for air under the loiscense plate on a late decklid with extra vents

An afternoon with a wideband and a sack of jets

Ideally install it in a slippery car like a ghia for better aerodynamics so it doesn't need to work as hard.

Bobs your uncle.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
how would you build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles that would give you good HP. and mileage.

"Stock" engine would use "stock" parts and provide "stock" HP.

OK, so i'd upgrade the crank to a CW, blueprint and balance everything. Cleanup the heads and carefully build it.
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txoval
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I would want to run fuel injection for cleaner/more efficient combustion. Reduce carbon buildup and cleaner oil.

Aluminum case, cut for best bearings available
CW 69 crank, forged
full balance

Thorsten Pieper lifters

Not sure on heads
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Well pictures are 1000 words!!

Go Type IV Engine, found in 73 and up Buses, 914's 411 412 buses.

They were made to push two ton buses.

Stock engines are 1700 1800 and 2000 Any just get rid of the stock cam.
Stock power is 80 to 100 hp

When I was looking for another 914 most were over 160, k miles and they weight 200 lbs more then my bug.

Same engine, never did a valve job or split the case, we are talking 30 years in the same car runs like new.

Painted the fanhousing Black the chome rusted after all those years.

The mileage, !!! after 120 k miles I changed 3 speedometers No clue.

Power, torque and lasts.


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b-man
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

US spec ‘66 1300.

Maybe add stainless exhaust valves.

Full flow filter too, Gene Berg pump cover and drilled/tapped case.

Stock everything.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Volkswagen already did it with the type 4. Very Happy
But, for real x2 on the fuel injection and full flow filtration. Hoover mods would help with keeping the heads cool and valve train lubed. I always wanted to put some sort of pre-oiler on to reduce startup wear, maybe I will on my next engine, certainly couldn't hurt.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I'd build a "modern" 1200, at least you can guarantee to have cylinder head temps under control, and not overstress the bottom end, either.

I don't see how a 2280 cam, with more lift than stock, etc..,will outlast a good stock setup, and those rarely last more than 100'000 m. I love CBs cams, but I think VW invested more research in materials compatibility and metallurgy.

Quality everything (esp. bearings). I would say tight clearances and thin oil, all the bells and whistles.
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

stock or stockish?

Aluminum case,
69.5 crank
85.5 Pistons/barrels
CB cheater cam
lightweight lifters
aluminum pushrods
chromoly spring retainers sing high rev springs
pan of cheeto heads Panchito's (thanks Mark)
full flow, oil filter , thermostaticly controlled remote oil cooler

compression around 8.5:1 (im sure thats more than the cheater needs but i cant bring myself to be under 8:1

stock , fully functional VW cooling system with flaps and working thermostat. Dual 34 ICT's for carburetion.

I think if someone didnt beat the hell out of it everyday and kept up on oil changes and valve lash a motor like this could live to or close to 200K as long as it didnt live on a dirt road
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oprn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Build it however suits you, buy a Dodge Cummins with a flat deck, drive it on and tie her down. Use it that way and you will get anywhere between 0.5 and 1 million miles before an overhaul is needed on the Cummins and the VW will still be good!

b-man wrote:
US spec ‘66 1300.

Maybe add stainless exhaust valves.

Full flow filter too, Gene Berg pump cover and drilled/tapped case.

Stock everything.

Yes! All joking aside the 1300 as supplied by VW was the longest lived stock engine not the 1500. Directly related in my view to power output. Same deal with the Dodge 215 slant 6.

I think the longevity as far more to do with: 1) attention to detail in the build more than what combination of parts are used, 2) completeness and proper adjustment of the cooling/temp control system, 3) religious maintenance, 3) avoiding short trips/engine runs at all costs. Don't daily dive it to work a few blocks and don't let Mumma take it shopping, use it only for intercontinental holiday tours! Wink

100K is possible with a type 1, 200K... well... you will have to work for it! Type 4 - no problem.

The type 3 by the way lasted a bit longer that the type 1 in general, some say better temp control, some say FI, I say both.
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Oprn you are right it is what it is.


I have built lots of T-1 engines since 1969 and right off between 80 and 100k you need a valve job.

Buses Ha cut that in half if you have a T-1 in it.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Its a great question.....and others have answered well.

However its like asking ...."listen....do you smell something?" (Dan Akroid- ghost busters 1) Laughing

I agree that if you are not hung up on a type 1 based engine......the type 4 engine would be a good start.

Personally......THE MOST developed engine of that line (by the factory).....was the 1.7L. It had the strongest heads, aluminum case, full flow oiling and all of the "Hoover mods" are either built in by the factory or negated by the build.

And ......it was never designed as a bus engine. It got put into the bus six years after it hit the market in the 411 cars.........because buses are nothing but parts grinders (at least in the US)...and the bay bus needed a better engine ...... Wink ......there was never ANY trouble hitting 150k miles in a type 4 engined 411, 412 or 914....driven decently and with good, basic, correct maintenance.

With better than average maintenance.....meaning religiously on time oil and filter changes....constant tuning as required and spot on fuel mixture......and do not let it sit around for years at a time (which is the worst thing for ANY engine).......I have never had issues with getting them to 200k+ miles.

But you have to check things.....and rebuuld them when they are not right. Expect a distributor rebuild by 100 to 150k. Do it. Expect a light valve job by about 125k miles. Expect some gaskets on the intakes and PR tubez and main seals anywhere from 75-80k to 150k miles.....do it. Dont just lazily drive a leaking, poorly tuned POS around. Thats what kills engines.

The stout bottom end and better materials are already there in a type 4. Its an improved type 1. The only real limitation to 200k miles is driving style and maintenance.

That said....if its high miles and reliability you want....stay with a 1.7l to 2.0 sized type 4 engine. The 1.7L was rock solid and put out 82hp factory with D-jet injection. It was no problem getting 200k with a well cared for engine. 150k was more common.

If you want to make that 1.7L better.....you can get a better than factory cam based around the same timing (web 73, raybe 9590).....stay with the same 8.2:1 compression and twin carbs for roughly the same 82 ho or slightly better....or bump the compression up to about 8.5:1.....and use the stock injection manifolds with aftermarket injection and rigjt at 90+hp is not hard to get. Get a better ignition system (module, coil and black box).....and a better thsn factory muffler or header. 200k miles easy. If you are going carbs there are a couple more cams you can use.

Heads....for 1.7L....find good used, uncracked ones....have them annealed....have new seats put in. Keep stock valves or max 42 x36 with intake tweaks. Otherwise 41 x 35 or stock. There are no new 1.7L castings...that I know of.

Same bssic recipe for the 1.8L except that you can get new head castings now so I would use those. Hp should be about 86 to 95 with great tuning.

The 2.0L is the same recipe....some better cams like the web 142 IIRC....and you can buy new 914 2.0L head castings.

The gist with all of these that I am listing is that they are all basically IMPROVED and slightly modernized STOCK engines.....and not BUS SPEC engines.

The cooling system and everything else on the 1.7L....was worked out very well from the factory. Bulletproof. Just make a few material changes like a better cam, valves and oil....and all of these were under-ignited by the factory......and you already have a 200k engine with better HP than any type 1 factory engine came with.

The 1.8L.....is just a slight manipulation of the 1.7L engine. Improve over what the factory did on it....simply by bringing the compression up....the deck smaller....and putting in a more reliable cam.....and its a 200k engine. For reference....see the twin carbed, high compression Euro version of the 1.8L. Thats the way to go.

The 2.0L should have just been a bump up from that....but I consider the "detuned" bus 2.0 a hot running mess that barely stays within the ability of the fan and cooling system......even though its characteristics....ARE....what the bay window bus required at that time.

So my opinion on the 2.0 is to use the Porsche 914 2.0 build sheet....but bump the compression up slightly, use new head castings with 42x36 valves, one of several web cams, better ignition as already mentioned , good exhaust....either a vintage speed or Bursch or similar....and aftermarket injection or twin carbs. Thats 110 to 120 hp....and with excellent care....will run 200k miles.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Here's a picture of my fresh rebuilt 100% stock single port with almost all OEM/NOS parts. I'm still breaking it in! I think I didn't screw anything up and it's running great knock on wood. The bottom end had 120k miles since it's last rebuild and was still in great shape. I did a full rebuild though because the lifters were flat and with all the grit and dirt falling in the case during tear down, I went ahead and did a full rebuild.

200k on a single relief, non-doghouse motor?
1. Good quality dino 30 weight oil and valve adjust every 1500 miles
2. Be kind to it; don't abuse it, under rev, over rev, etc., warm it up before driving hard
3. Stock air cleaner, flaps, thermostat (I even have the snorkel pre-heat cable working. I think that was '69 only), all tin installed, manifold heater working properly, etc.
4. Original distributor with the less advanced #3 lobe
5. Valve job, rings, and new exhaust valves between 50 and 100k
6. Balance the rods, pistons/pins, clutch
7. Fuel pump filter only so you don't burn down the car before 200k (I have an inline filter under the parcel tray temporarily because I just refurbished the gas tank). New fuel lines every couple of years.
8. Obsess over measuring and inspecting everything on the rebuild. I didn't do a true blueprint rebuild (not in my budget) but did come close in many respects. For example, uniform deck height and 7.5 CR, balanced everything I could (going to trust the factory crank balance was good enough), valve spring tension uniform, uniform loaded spring height, etc. etc.
9. Slow down your shifting and speed match and your friction plate could outlast the throwout bearing and pressure plate.
10. Increase the main jet and maybe the idle jet a little bit from stock (too lean) but not too much.

Honestly, I think you can get high mileage and drive any motor hard if you take decent care of it.


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Wreck
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I think a lot also depends on quality of oil and filters ,oil and air . Plus how meticulous the servicing is . Is the engine ever run hot or too cold for long periods of time . Was it balanced and built well .

A good friend had a 1640 TP with twin 40 IDF,s moderate cam and compression ,do over 300k in a superbug , not sure if the heads ever had work in that time , I know a Morey’s upper cylinder lubricate was used after the swap to unleaded fuel .it was pretty sad when retired.The main parts of that engine now live in a mini mouse engine . this is a bit of an exception to the rule though.
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chrisflstf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Are you saying only regular maintenance - valve adjust, oil change, tuneup, lube, but no repairs?

Maybe define " last 200,000 miles "
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

ok guys i should have said only a type 1 motor build .in 1973 when i worked at a vw dealer ship the 1967 vw bugs had the most miles on them from 90,000 to 120,000 to 140,000 to 160,000 . one lady had 160 miles on a 67 bug and your right she needed one valve job at 100,000 miles . its all ways been the valve guides not holding up in air cooled motors back in the 1960s and 1970s . and thats with leaded gas guys . the biggest killer there was of a vw air cooled motor was dropped exhaust valves . . vw bugs back in the 1960 1970s were work cars that a lot of guys drove to work .and they were the last to get fixed . all so if a guy runs the dog shit out of a vw air cooled motor its not going to last
i dont care how you build a stock motor lol lol over the years when i was young and dumb i killed a lot of vw air cooled motors . i thought every vw bug i had was a race car .spencerfvee
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

So his goal is engine that lasts a long time and has power.


Reminds me of joke.

Guy goes to a doctor and says what can I do to live a long time.

Doctors says can you stop smoking, eating red meat, running around with women and not getting enough sleep and no wine, beer or other alcohol drinks!!!

The Guy says if I do all that will I live a real long time?

Doctors says, " Well it is going to seem like a real long time".


There goes the driving fun!!
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Look at it this way:

If you drive your VW daily as much as the average driver you'll put 12,000 miles a year. So in 10 years you'll put 120,000 miles which is very doable with a nicely built Type 1.

That brings you to 2031.... there's a good chance you won't be able to find fuel to run it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Look at it this way:

That brings you to 2031.... there's a good chance you won't be able to find fuel to run it.


Damn, I just sold a set of Brazilian Solex/Brosol carbs jetted to run on alcohol. Wink

But seriously, the best way to get to high miles/hours out of any engine is to run it at a steady reasonable rpm for long periods of time. When I worked in the ski industry the old lift mechanics talked about the vw industrial engine that ran the rope tow for 20 years. Only rebuilt once. Probably ran about 500-700 hours a year. If you do the math that's one high hour engine. But it was started every morning and run at a steady 3500 rpm all day through a series of reduction pulleys so it was relatively unstressed application.

Yes balancing parts and watching tolerances and buying high quality parts is important, but you'll kill the best built motor in no time if you beat on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Drive 65 to 80 mph a lot on the NY state Thruway. I drive it like I stole it.

30 year old T-4 not babied !!


What good is having it if you can't have fun with it.....

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