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you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles
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spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
nextgen wrote:
Drive 65 to 80 mph a lot on the NY state Thruway. I drive it like I stole it What good is having it if you can't have fun with it.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap0NeT2Q2vc


I agree😀
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Have fun.
.......................................................................................................why is your red light on on your dash? spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: if you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
FreeBug wrote:
oprn wrote:
The type 3 by the way lasted a bit longer that the type 1 in general, some say better temp control, some say FI, I say both.


The carbed type 3s lasted longer, too, so it wasn't only the injection that gave them longevity, even though the bottom end had to deal with more power.

Type 1s and 3s were assembled at the factory with the same level of care...just sayin'

The last year for the dual carb type 3 in Canada was rated at 66 HP whereas the FI was rated at 65 HP so no FI didn't necessarily have more power.


I didn't express myself clearly: the type 3 made more power than the type 1, with the same bottom end.

All engines are motors...but not all motors are engines. But the definition of engine has changed, too, and I don't see how a cotton 'gin fits into these definitions.

p.s. "motor" can mean "car" in English.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
Wreck wrote:
evanfrucht wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
Matthew wrote:

I think Spencer cleared it up along (after the original post) the way that the discussion is about type 1 VW.


I totally agree.
For some unknown reason folks keep brining up the T4 as a great long living engine. WE GET IT!
But this thread is about a T1 200K single port.

Not some 1.7, 1.8, 2.0 Porsche wanna be poser!

Buncha posers Laughing Laughing Laughing


to be fair, Spencervee did not clarify the type 1 criteria till later in the thread . Looks like the type 1 only guys are a little sensitive Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .

from a 2600cc Type 4 guy that likes telling people its only got a Veedub bus motor , not a Porsche or Scooby-do .
if you beat them in a race . They can accept a Porsche or a Subi , but being smoked by a VW bus motor, that hurts !!! Priceless .
................................................................................................................i dont think type 1 guys are as you put it are senstive . i posted on this forum . how can you build a typ1 engine or motor to run 200,000 miles . most of the type 1 guys wanted to hear about how would you build a type 1 motor to go 200,000 miles . and then the type 4 guys .had there two cents .and say that the type 4 motors were better . and thats ok . but they were of no help on how to build a type 1 motor to run over 200,000 miles .to me it seems that there were more type1 motors built than the type 4 motors that vw built over the years . thats why i posted on this forum how to go 200,000 miles with a vw bug type 1 motor . i think its great to hear what other vw guys have to say about how they would build a type one motor to go 200,000 miles spencerfvee


I did actually give my thoughts on how a friend got over 300,000 kilometres out of a not so mild 1640 in a superbug on the first page .

I always wonder why people find the type 4 harder to work on than the type 1 . being able to fit the lifters and pushrod tubes in after the heads are on , no juggling act , but each to their own . I like both engines , horses for courses .
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I think you could make 200k with a carefully balanced and detailed 1600SP built with full flow filtration, stainless steel valves and DH shroud with factory tins and thermostat. It would require responsible driving and meticulous maintenance.
This is for type 1 beetle or Ghia use of course. Running it in a bus would cut life considerably.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
I would build a single port 1600 with a cheater cam and doghouse cooling. I would buy 2 sets of heads and 4 sets of bearings and 2 sets of cam with lifters. Every 50 thousand miles I would replace bearings and inspect the heads. Valve job if necessary. Second set of heads and cam would get installed at 100,000 miles, along with new bearings.

This seems counter to the question.

"If you were to build a single port motor to last 200,000 miles"

Changing the bearings, cam, lifters and heads. Is really rebuilding (refreshing) an engine early. Rather than at the 200K mark, that Spencer is speaking of.

40+ years ago. I had my first 67 with a stock 1500. In shroud oil cooler. Completely neglected and abused.
I drove that car everywhere. From So Cal to Az. So Cal to Mammoth Mt. ski trips. So Cal to Sf Bay area and back in a weekend. Only two times did that little work horse let me down. Once by a set of burned points. And the other, Embarassed over heated it climbing the Grapevine.

I never clocked the miles on that car before I killed it. Sad
But, it was allot of care free miles. And the car kept giving and giving.
Imagine if I had bothered to do the proper maintenance.
Who knows how many miles that little 1500 would have lasted.

Igot busy and didn't come back to this thread, but the reasoning behind the 50,000 mile refresh is if you catch the bearings before they got too worn down you may avoid beating up the case and may not have to do any machining/line boring, etc. Just install new bearings and put it all back together.

If you really want to build a 200,000 mile daily driver VW engine, you would have to reengineer it with better parts, tighter tolerances, better balancing, modern coatings on internals, etc.
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

All you guys have great suggestions, but I think we are reinventing the wheel.

Simple lets look at the cars that do 200k easy. When I am going to put thousands of dollars for a car there are two things I want for my money.

Extreme reliability and be able to go over 200 k or more with very little maintenance.

Top of the list Toyota !!! My 2008 Solara Couple has 200,000 on it.

One plug change, at 120k ( that is standard for the car ) got to wait for 220k for the next one. Automatic tranny fluid change, warned that is extremely important due to price of a new tranny --- The fluid change is $250, worth every penny.

So besides being a water cooled car what have they done, to make me happy about my well spent money.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Cars built today are specifically built to not need much service. They are no fun to work on anyway Razz

The question isn't how to build a 60 year old air-cooled motor that will go 200k+ without any maintenance. It's just how to build one with that milage goal in mind. There should be no rebuilding needed, but proper frequent maintenance is allowed.

I still think a stock motor was meant to last that long when driven the way it was intended. Not too fast, not to hard, etc. But because of the low cost and mass production involved, some unlucky ones left the factory, doomed to fail early.

I still think it's pretty simple. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here IMO, just simply add a few touches those German's were to cheap to include Twisted Evil
- extremely well balanced
- blue printed heads
- case savers
- hoover mods
- full flow oil filtration
- sleeved lifter bores
- dog house cooler and shroud
- extra external oil cooler with a fan that can be switched on from the dash manually and/or set to automatically go on under load only when it reaches a certain temp.
-thermostat assembly like normally
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

ok my take on building a lets say 200,000 mile motor . might have went over board on saying 200,000 mile motor build but its a guy thing lol more is better right guys lol. 100% new alum. case . engle w 90 cheater cam. steel straight cut cam gears . use mahle cam bearings . the ones that come with two thrust bearings . good german lifters. stock rockers. chromoly push rods. with valve lash caps .its easy to change lash caps. if they wear out and the valve adjusters .chromoly valve spring retainers . single high rev valve springs . 1976 heads dual port fuel inj. they have small intake valves the ex. valves have a bigger valve steams S&S intake valves ( on valve guides no one makes long lasting valve guides ) try to find good german guides . they last longer . mild port matching on the intake end castings . and mild port job on the intake manifold side of the end castings . all so try to find good german intake manifold boots the cheap, ones crack . and use good usa intake boot clamps . find a good used stock dual port intake manifold .make sure the heat riser tube are open and not blocked , use a 34 pict 3 carb. the best brand 34 carb is a Bocar. i like a 120 airjet 55 to 60 idl jet with a 130 to 132 main jet i like the 1967 vw bug air cleaners . they have a built in stack thats 5" tall helps that helps to stop high speed fuel stand off at high rpm . a very hard to find mahle 1500cc pists. cyls if not a mahle set of 1600 . stock crank. new stock rods . stock fly wheel . balanced crank to to zero silverline main bearings they have steel backed bearings in there sets mahle does not .
mahle rod bearings . next a 009 distributor set up to have 14degs int all in by 2,800 rpm total adv. 32 degs . why the 009 . is you can get parts about any were napa has them . taylor wires . a Bosch 5,000 rev limit rotor. so one does not over rev the motor . blue coil . all stock vw sheet metal ./ stock fan housing. type 3 cooling tin under the cyls. stainless steel push rod tubes . vw german valve covers . install a formula vee tack that was sold at ever vw dealer . a set of headers run rv gas it has no alcohol to eat up the rubber fuel lines . thats all folks . every person has there own way of building a motor ever one does it differnt when they build there motor. . in the end it will live and breath fire i am sure some on here wont agree with the way i would build a 200,000 mile motor cant please every one joke lol lol spencerfvee ,


Last edited by spencerfvee on Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Max Welton
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Thing is, nobody drives these cars that far any more.

Max
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Max Welton wrote:
Thing is, nobody drives these cars that far any more.

Max

I put about 100k on mine the last 6 or so years. Daily driver.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Impressive.

OK, almost nobody. Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I was thinking (uh-oh) , and his is what came to mind:

Why don't VWs las 200'00 miles?

-heat issues messing with valves, seats, etc...
This is why i was thinking "modern" 1200, max cooling area per cc of displacement, dog-house, keep it from dipping into the red zone every now and then...best seats, guides, and valves you can get (I didn't say afford).

- wear
So, full flow, Hoover mods, excellent filtration. I'm never sure what the
current state-of the art is for filters this week... best bearings you can get
(custom job?)

-pounding
Good balance, counterweights (there will be some arguments there), alum
engine case.

- tolerances
I'm thinking tight tolerances, thin oil, so you have some ability to compensate for wear, thicker oil as you go.

- tune
This is of primordial importance. Notice how the longevity of the average
car went up with electronic fuel injection? I mean full, lambda feed back,
etc... spark should be crank trigger, perfectly programmed, too, with
feedback, knock sensor, etc..

-good breather
I'm not sure if this is that important, but I think it might be

-maintenance
Well, after all my genius ideas, if your VW doesn't do 200'000 miles, it's
your fault! Laughing

I'm pretty sure I forgot about 10-12 things....ok, maybe 30. Popcorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I would look into the beehive springs from Dan Ruddock. I have no clue if there's a point of diminishing returns on using them on just a stock engine compared to a bored/stroked one. Adding to Freebug's already good points, harmonics come to mind on valvetrain wear. You say nobody makes good guides anymore? Maybe their excessive wear can be mitigated by installing the beehive springs.

It's worth giving Dan a call. He always answers and is more than willing to provide his input.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

FreeBug wrote:

- tune
This is of primordial importance. Notice how the longevity of the average
car went up with electronic fuel injection? I mean full, lambda feed back,
etc... spark should be crank trigger, perfectly programmed, too, with
feedback, knock sensor, etc..



This. Before all this electronic equipment, fuel/air mixture and spark advance was always a compromise for actual driving conditions. Now it's optimal for each combustion cycle. With two identical stock air-cooled VW engines you would have to use different ignition timing depending on if you lived in Denver or L.A., with a modern engine the computer does all that for you.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I forgot very few cars in the 1960 and 70 were lucky to make 100k. Yes and they were water cooled.

BTY I must have had a brain freeze, Beetles were more reliable then the cars of those years.

We can't compare our year bugs to new cars and that is like the Wright Brothers VS Space X.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

This topic kinda went off on a tangent. I think there are a lot of areas on the 1600 that can be improved-upon that will improve reliability, which in-turn will boost power because of increased efficiency. I generally look at the engine on a component level, to try and improve every major part:

Assume we'll take advantage of any coatings that will reduce friction or lower temperatures.

Crankshaft - it needs more journal overlap to make the part more rigid. 5000 rpm doesn't necessarily warrant counterweights, IMO. What it needs is larger mains. This first item on the list may not make any short-term power benefits, but your bearings will thank you. While on the crank, a tighter balancing tolerance would do wonders for longevity and power. 8 dowels might not be a bad idea either.

Con-rods - they're okay. Not too heavy. Relatively strong. The only thing I might want to do is lower the stroke/rod ratio. With the stock pistons, it might become an issue. But my engine wouldn't use stock pistons anyway.

Flywheel - I believe relieving a few pounds off the flywheel would make it easier to accelerate, so the user could use less throttle to get up to speed. Using a smaller % of power over the life of the engine could increase its' reliability.

There may be an advantage to sealing that snout area with a sand seal, and improving crankcase pressure evacuation. Both the T4 and WBX used seals.

Go back to copper thrusts!

Crankcase - through bolts with proper, wide washers on faced surfaces. All removable galley plugs. Full flow would not only add a real filter, but allow a longer period for any oil foaming to simmer down. Oil holes perfectly aligned to both the bearings and pump. A thinline sump has more pros than cons. My vote is for 10mm studs over 8mm for longevity.

Cylinders/pistons - probably the most overlooked component. A truly round barrel, with the correct hone for the rings being used improves power, sealing, temperatures, engine life, etc. Torque plate-honed barrels, modern 85.5 +/-.5 pistons with a smaller compression heights, lighter, narrower pins, thinner rings with less tension would be the single best improvement overall. Incorporate a dome to improve mixture motion and gas evacuation, and your power could be up over 10% and responsiveness would improve from the reduced weight and friction. Run tight tolerances and you'll consume less oil too.

Camshaft - go with a grinder that can make a modern ramp design that would take advantage of whatever modifications you're performing, whether it be VE improvers, or scavenging improvers. Doesn't need to lift more, especially if the other mods are helping to raise VE.

Pushrods - fine as-is. If they were a bit shorter, they'd flex less...

Heads - I'm sure there'd be a dozen different approaches, but having a consistent cross sectional diameter, high velocity, an excellent valve job, no shrouding and smooth transitions should be on everyone's list. The casting should have a thick ceiling for strength, like most new heads have. A better seat material like Moldstar 90, or other bronze/copper material would reduce cracking because of the smaller interference-fit and expansion rates. It also transfers heat and is quieter than steel. Coupled with high quality SS valves and single-grooves, you'll have a long-lasting combo. I like Mexico stock springs. I've taken a set to 6,000 rpm many times and they lasted 100,000 miles. For longevity, chromoly retainers. Due to the modifications to improve friction and cooling, an engine like this might want to run higher than 8.5:1, even with a 4,500 rpm cam.

Rockers - besides shaft upgrades and good swivels, the rockers themselves are gold. I've compared both styles of rockers against each other, and for this purpose, OEM style has more benefits - mainly valve stem oiling.

Induction - small ITBs that have a tuned length to boost torque at cruising speed.

Exhaust - likely a 35mm 4-1 header, stainless to avoid sucking in rust flakes during startup. Long primaries. Exhaust-driven crankcase scavenge.

Ignition - should probably eliminate the distributor altogether and go crank-fired. I know the counter arguments, but if you drive anything modern, then your argument really isn't valid.
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Bugguy you are 100% correct in what you are saying. Yes the guy that started this post did not mention how much he was willing to spend to achieve his 200k plus good performance goal.

What you said is not cheap. an unlimited amount of money anything can be made.

My point was and is, the T-4 has done all and more of what he wants.

Actually I would say for the cost of what it would cost to built that T-1, a 150hp T-4 could be built that that can well exceed the 200 k goal with a heck of alot more power then the T-1

If the project is just to see if a T-1 can be built that can go 200k and have power, Ok I understand.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

just a thought , anyone know what sort of milage the last Mexican ACD engines averaged , since they were used as Taxi's I'm guessing it was very good .

I've a nice ACD with hydraulic lifters ,factory VW oil filter etc as a spare back up engine . came in the Ghia I have that was a Californian car. I plan to rebuild it to a 88x74 as nice mild quiet everyday engine . Sort of along the lines buggy1967 mentioned , except a mild hydraulic roller cam for the friction reduction .

Something else to add to the equation is what type of driving . A lot of freeway constant high speed driving will increase life (with good cooling and gearing) . A lot less engine hours traveling at 70mph verses around town at 40mph .
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Q-Dog wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
I would build a single port 1600 with a cheater cam and doghouse cooling. I would buy 2 sets of heads and 4 sets of bearings and 2 sets of cam with lifters. Every 50 thousand miles I would replace bearings and inspect the heads. Valve job if necessary. Second set of heads and cam would get installed at 100,000 miles, along with new bearings.

This seems counter to the question.

"If you were to build a single port motor to last 200,000 miles"

Changing the bearings, cam, lifters and heads. Is really rebuilding (refreshing) an engine early. Rather than at the 200K mark, that Spencer is speaking of.

40+ years ago. I had my first 67 with a stock 1500. In shroud oil cooler. Completely neglected and abused.
I drove that car everywhere. From So Cal to Az. So Cal to Mammoth Mt. ski trips. So Cal to Sf Bay area and back in a weekend. Only two times did that little work horse let me down. Once by a set of burned points. And the other, Embarassed over heated it climbing the Grapevine.

I never clocked the miles on that car before I killed it. Sad
But, it was allot of care free miles. And the car kept giving and giving.
Imagine if I had bothered to do the proper maintenance.
Who knows how many miles that little 1500 would have lasted.

Igot busy and didn't come back to this thread, but the reasoning behind the 50,000 mile refresh is if you catch the bearings before they got too worn down you may avoid beating up the case and may not have to do any machining/line boring, etc. Just install new bearings and put it all back together.

If you really want to build a 200,000 mile daily driver VW engine, you would have to reengineer it with better parts, tighter tolerances, better balancing, modern coatings on internals, etc.



Uh....you mean...build it like a type 4?

They are simply re-engineered type 1 engines....better materials, better oiling, better cooling, solid rockers...blah, blah, blah.....yeah....I know....the OP wants a type 1. But by the time you add all of the coatings and better rocker shafts and rockers and valves and cooling and oil filter......and especially the aluminum case so you don't pound out the case bores......you spent as much or more as a type 4....and they already go 200k miles. Laughing ....just sayin!

Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

nextgen wrote:
Bugguy you are 100% correct in what you are saying. Yes the guy that started this post did not mention how much he was willing to spend to achieve his 200k plus good performance goal.

What you said is not cheap. an unlimited amount of money anything can be made.

My point was and is, the T-4 has done all and more of what he wants.

Actually I would say for the cost of what it would cost to built that T-1, a 150hp T-4 could be built that that can well exceed the 200 k goal with a heck of alot more power then the T-1

If the project is just to see if a T-1 can be built that can go 200k and have power, Ok I understand.
........................................................................................................................ you are not telling every one how much it would cost for a up right type4 fan housing kit .so you can put a the type 4 motor into a bug and the cost of a header for a type 4 big money no thanks on a type 4 motor. in hot vws mag you rarely see a vw bug with a type4 motor . here on the samba you rarely see type 4 builds why no one wants the type4 motors in there bugs . for the last time this is a type 1 motor build . if your so in love with a type4 motors . start your own type 4 motor build . spencerfvee
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