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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69809
Location: Phoenix Metro
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Jason37
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004
Posts: 1028
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 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| jpaull wrote: |
To build a long living type 1, I would overbuild it, meaning build a 120hp engine like its gonna have 200hp. Nice thing about Type 1 stuff, you can point and click every item and have it all show up and build it. Below is a Longblock with all this in mind, about $4200 total when you add in some other small parts.
1968cc Thickwall
Order Aluminum case from Brothers ($1200 total) but have bronze bushings in lifter bores installed, as bronze lasts longer then aluminum or mag. Opt for the groove as this includes the super long drill bit operation that is scary to do but gives better oiling. 94mm, and 10mm studs.
http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/machine.htm
Cb 74mm Forged Crank $229
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1107.htm
12lb German forged flywheel from DPR $150
http://dprmachine.com/products/flywheels-2/
H-Beam Rods $259, remember we are not building "just enough to last" we are overbuilding it, and its only $100 more then others
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1289.htm
92 Thickwalls-$234
https://aapistons.com/products/92mmx69mm-thick-wall-fits-94mm-head-cylinder
CB2236 Cam$99, which works well with 1.25 rockers. It similar to 110, but gets its lift more from ratio rocker then all from the cam. Its more gentle, and overall more powerfull. Again, less stress on valve train
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2236.htm
CB lightweight lifters $178:
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1537.htm
CB Chromoly Pushrods $79
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1628.htm
Magnum Straight Cut gears from Brothers $129
http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/parts.htm
CB Panchito heads with CNC chambers $670
CB Mil Spec 10mm Chromo head studs $69
Again overbuilt for strength, not elastic 8mm for the low horsepower theorists.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1223.htm
CB stainless pushrod tubes $39
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1567.htm
CB thinline sump $119, or Empi equivilant that has the drain plug
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1770.htm
Stainless teflon oil lines with steel AN fittings about $120. I ordered mine from hose shop and ordered steel fittings.
30m oil pump $56
You can adjust your oil weight accordingly down better then you can adjusting up, this is the reason for the 30.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254939531587?epid=3019850105&hash=item3b5b948943:g:TUEAAOSwKZ1gdKjE
This will be a overbuilt type 1 with durability and long life in mind. |
Thank you for the post that contains some really useful info. The page that follows after this is the garbage that drives people away from forums. |
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Dauz
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1790
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| I don't care about German engineering. Main reason why I do this is because I thought it was cool when my Dad was doing it when I was a kid. |
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jimmyhoffa
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 1057
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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Yeah you're probably wrong about that. VW's goal was (and is) to make a reasonably reliable car that would meet the customer's expectation of how long their product should last, and make money doing it. That is a road full of compromises and realistic goals, NOT a road full of lofty service life specifications, infinitely deep pockets, and "make it invincible at any cost" ultimatums from project management. VW did not set out to make a 200k engine and never got there, they set out to make an engine last about 100k and did it millions of times.
You missed the point of this thread, which is actually pretty cool. We know that VW did NOT set out to make a 200k mile engine, and we were here to discuss what we might do to get closer to that goal, because our goals are different than VWs.
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:27 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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spencerfvee, I admire your ability to dream in this thread and another one in this forum, I too have dreamed dreams, that is what drives progress but some are possible but some are not. VW spent 50 years with the best German engineer team and materials trying to solve what you are dreaming of but in the end failed. Others have pointed out the pinnacle of those efforts which you reject. Fair enough. Go ahead and do what VW never achieved but with Chinese copy parts.
Sorry about reality...
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:10 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| hi i am sad to say. but i just e mailed Evertt B and asked him to lock down this forum . mainly because of raygreenwood and the other type4 guys .that wanted to force there type 4 builds on this forum .every day . i asked them not to but they still posted on my forum . thats whats wrong with the USA to many bullies out there . i wanted this forum to go on. but to go on and deal with them every day just is not fair to others that wanted to post about there type1 builds . i know no one wants to see a pissing contest going on every day .taking up space on this forum . i want to thank all that posted on there type 1 builds on this forum . good luck to all . boy i realy wanted this forum to go on . but i did not want say something about the type4 guys using 4 letter words .i did not want to lower my self to there standers spencerfvee |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:35 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| oprn wrote: |
In defence of Ray, his contributions here stand head and shoulders above most on the Samba for technical content, accuracy and down to earth realism but not everyone is able to comprehend it...
Enjoy your type 1 200K mile engine. |
.................................................................................................... thats it. i am going to ask Evert B to lock this forum down. thats the only way to deal with jerks like you and ray .trying to prove . god know what. that your both better than any one else . i got better things to do. than deal with you two jerks . i hope Evert B deals with both of you and ray . i hope your both happy know every one likes a little ass but know one like a smart ass like you and ray spencerfvee |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:05 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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In defence of Ray, his contributions here stand head and shoulders above most on the Samba for technical content, accuracy and down to earth realism but not everyone is able to comprehend it...
Enjoy your type 1 200K mile engine.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:45 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| Btw Ray. I have two T4 projects. I love em, but don't care to push them much for my own selfish reasons. The more people we get to jump ship, the less cores that will be available. So 🤐... |
That....is so true!
And...Spencervee......where....where.....where...where....did I EVER say or point out that the type 4 was.............BETTER.....than type 1? or the best?
Where?
Your original post was asking about a 200k vw engine. You did not STATE type 1 or type 4.....and...did not state a budget.
I am NOT trying to convince you to use a type 4......simply pointing out that most of the pieces and characteristics you NEED for a 200k ACVW engine...........ALREADY EXIST.....in the type 4......STUDY IT! Use some of that. Type 4 is simply an improved type 1.....for good reason.
But hey...it appears you are looking for a thread to suggest every manner of exotica to make a type 1 last as long as an ....improved type 1...which is nothing but a type 4.
You also did not suggest...what SIZE engine you were looking for....what HP and torque range....or how you plan to drive it.
One could simply build a 4o horse with an aftermarket oil filter and a counterweighted crank with aftermarket injection and we could have solved this on page 2.
Don't act like people are jacking your thread who are not. Just be more careful in your original post and title.
Ray |
...............................................................................................................good lord you need to grow up . you are all ways looking for a fight .to prove you won . you keep saying the same old thing over and over . what part of go a way dont you under stand you make a fool of your self .every time you post on this forum . no one cares what you have to say . if you would have read my post i stated what kind of motor i would build now go away little man i know what your trying to do .your trying to get this forum locked down by Evert B now be a man and stop acting like a 14 year boy spencerfvee |
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wheel607
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:30 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| Dauz wrote: |
| Chickensoup wrote: |
| windex injection |
I hear it helps with broken bones and the common cold  |
Only if you are Greek!!! |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:29 am Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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200.000 miles / 300.000 km without a valve job? I want to see which valves, guides and seats last like that in a VW engine 
cylinder and ring life could be more feasible with some fancy rings, long rods and sane rpm, along with proper air and oil filtration |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3462
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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To build a long living type 1, I would overbuild it, meaning build a 120hp engine like its gonna have 200hp. Nice thing about Type 1 stuff, you can point and click every item and have it all show up and build it. Below is a Longblock with all this in mind, about $4200 total when you add in some other small parts.
1968cc Thickwall
Order Aluminum case from Brothers ($1200 total) but have bronze bushings in lifter bores installed, as bronze lasts longer then aluminum or mag. Opt for the groove as this includes the super long drill bit operation that is scary to do but gives better oiling. 94mm, and 10mm studs.
http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/machine.htm
Cb 74mm Forged Crank $229
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1107.htm
12lb German forged flywheel from DPR $150
http://dprmachine.com/products/flywheels-2/
H-Beam Rods $259, remember we are not building "just enough to last" we are overbuilding it, and its only $100 more then others
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1289.htm
92 Thickwalls-$234
https://aapistons.com/products/92mmx69mm-thick-wall-fits-94mm-head-cylinder
CB2236 Cam$99, which works well with 1.25 rockers. It similar to 110, but gets its lift more from ratio rocker then all from the cam. Its more gentle, and overall more powerfull. Again, less stress on valve train
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2236.htm
CB lightweight lifters $178:
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1537.htm
CB Chromoly Pushrods $79
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1628.htm
Magnum Straight Cut gears from Brothers $129
http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/parts.htm
CB Panchito heads with CNC chambers $670
CB Mil Spec 10mm Chromo head studs $69
Again overbuilt for strength, not elastic 8mm for the low horsepower theorists.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1223.htm
CB stainless pushrod tubes $39
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1567.htm
CB thinline sump $119, or Empi equivilant that has the drain plug
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1770.htm
Stainless teflon oil lines with steel AN fittings about $120. I ordered mine from hose shop and ordered steel fittings.
30m oil pump $56
You can adjust your oil weight accordingly down better then you can adjusting up, this is the reason for the 30.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254939531587?epid=3019850105&hash=item3b5b948943:g:TUEAAOSwKZ1gdKjE
This will be a overbuilt type 1 with durability and long life in mind. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| Btw Ray. I have two T4 projects. I love em, but don't care to push them much for my own selfish reasons. The more people we get to jump ship, the less cores that will be available. So 🤐... |
That....is so true!
And...Spencervee......where....where.....where...where....did I EVER say or point out that the type 4 was.............BETTER.....than type 1? or the best?
Where?
Your original post was asking about a 200k vw engine. You did not STATE type 1 or type 4.....and...did not state a budget.
I am NOT trying to convince you to use a type 4......simply pointing out that most of the pieces and characteristics you NEED for a 200k ACVW engine...........ALREADY EXIST.....in the type 4......STUDY IT! Use some of that. Type 4 is simply an improved type 1.....for good reason.
But hey...it appears you are looking for a thread to suggest every manner of exotica to make a type 1 last as long as an ....improved type 1...which is nothing but a type 4.
You also did not suggest...what SIZE engine you were looking for....what HP and torque range....or how you plan to drive it.
One could simply build a 4o horse with an aftermarket oil filter and a counterweighted crank with aftermarket injection and we could have solved this on page 2.
Don't act like people are jacking your thread who are not. Just be more careful in your original post and title.
Ray |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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Dad said that the tractors he ran were set up to just use water out of the rad. It would be hot water but it still did the job. Like Farmer Bill says it's the conversion to steam where the big gain is.
Back then very few farmers could justify the expense of anti freeze, just drained the system at night if it looked like frost.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| I see nothing has changed sinceI I took a break in October.......now I remember why I took a break........maybe I'll take another one |
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FarmerBill
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017
Posts: 766
Location: New England
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| The first water injected engine I'm aware of was the Rumely Oil-Pull of about 1910. Twin cylinder, kerosene powered, air cooled (they called it oil cooled). I think the water injection on the Rumely was as much to prevent pre ignition as it was to control temps. Same on the old gas tractors. Between the carbon build up, crude ignition systems, poor combustion chamber design, and thermo-syphon cooling systems, the cooler you could keep the heads the less likely you were to pre ignite. It did produce more power though, denser air/fuel charge, water vapor flashing to steam gives a bit of torque as well, and it lowers the EGT too. Now its pretty much just the tractor pull guys running water injection (and washer fluid too I've heard), mostly to keep their pistons from melting, but also for the reasons listed above. Not a bad idea for air cooled VW heads. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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Water injection into an N/A engine is old stuff. Farmers were doing it back in the 1940s to maintain the same pulling power and cool running on a hot summer day that they had with the cool night air. No methanol, just water.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| I wonder how effective meth or windex injection would be on an na type 1. Normally you hear people with forced induction using meth injection but because the vw cylinder heats naturally run hotter, it may be worth a try. |
Totally disregard it's on a type 4 . both my engines run water/meth injection , it is a great way to control cylinder head temps .
On my 2.6 I use is to fill a slightly lean spot on transition from idle to main circuit . If done correctly , the water/meth when injected turns into a vapour , simple physics states that any time a liquid changes state to a vapour it absorbs energy . (heat) that is how AC or a fridge works . It also shrinks the intake charge . Snow maintain it is like running 115 octane fuel . the trick is how much . it needs tuning like everything else .
Spencer if I have come across as rude that was never my intention and apologise ,same as Joe , if we were face to face I'd defiantly put out my hand for a hand shake . anyone with a passion for their hobby or lifestyle will generally want to prove themselves and convert others , human nature . At the end of the day we all have a passion for old VW's which is awesome . |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1596
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| ... wow i learned some thing new . i was shocked at all the water thats in the oil . may i ask how you made your water separation system ? thanks spencerfvee |
Sure. I go into more detail about the oil pre-heater and the air/oil separator here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=712040&highlight=
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6025
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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