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denver_74
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Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NY
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 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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is it necessary to loosen the case bolts when removing the oil pump (engine in)?
I have two manuals that say yes and others that make no mention. I have also watched videos and searched and again there doesn't seem to be a "method of choice".
I tore down the original engine that came with my standard (it had been left for dead) and I couldnt budge the oil pump without literally splitting the case. (thanks to the advice of this forum).
Don't want to create an issue. Been dragging my feet on this install. Too much time to think.
D74
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Glenn 
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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Just the M8 nuts above and below the pump
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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denver_74
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NY
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Just the M8 nuts above and below the pump |
right. thank you glenn, I should have been more specific.
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frenchroast
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Joined: October 13, 2019
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| The studs came out with the nuts on my pump. Then just pull the gears and spin the body out. |
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61SNRF
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Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4657
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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I would think loosening the case bolts could compromise the seal between the case halves. Unless one was disassmbling the engine for overhaul don't think it's a good idea.
VW made an oil pump puller to get them out, here is a photo of a cheap copy being used, no need to loosen the case bolts...
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61SNRF
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Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4657
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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Double post
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An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Last edited by 61SNRF on Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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denver_74
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Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NY
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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I have a puller.
I am concerned that loosening the case bolts could cause issue but many people (and a couple books) recommend loosening the car bolts above and below the pump. some recommend just loosening the two immediately above and below and still others recommend the loosening the one below the pump and two above.
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61SNRF
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Joined: March 29, 2009
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Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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You don't have to leave the case nuts loose to install the oil pump so why should you have to loosen them to remove?
All I can say is I would never do it unless the case was getting split anyway.
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-Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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denver_74
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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I "think" the idea of loosening the case bolts is just take "a little tension" off the bolts. But I hear what you're saying. My engine is fairly "new" and a strong runner - I don't want f'it up.
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67rustavenger
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Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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Honestly. Glenn's approach is fine. Loosen the M8 nuts above and below the pump and carefully remove it.
Doing this will not "F" anything up.
Just because you can install an oil pump with the case hardware torqued. Does not mean that the pump will come out easily.
If you want a real challenge. Try removing a filter pump, or an outlet plugged full flow pump. You cannot use the puller pictured above to remove these pumps
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beetlenut
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Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 2981
Location: RI
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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I just installed a CB Max2 filter pump, and loosened the top and bottom case bolts slightly to get the old one out and put the new one in. Still had to use a puller to get the old pump out. Re-tightened and leak checked with no issues. It's just two bolts, not all the case bolts.
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scrapyards are for quitters
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| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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denver_74
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:59 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| beetlenut wrote: |
| I just installed a CB Max2 filter pump, and loosened the top and bottom case bolts slightly to get the old one out and put the new one in. Still had to use a puller to get the old pump out. Re-tightened and leak checked with no issues. It's just two bolts, not all the case bolts. |
yep that's my project next week. what did you use on the paper gaskets??
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beetlenut
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Location: RI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| denver_74 wrote: |
| beetlenut wrote: |
| I just installed a CB Max2 filter pump, and loosened the top and bottom case bolts slightly to get the old one out and put the new one in. Still had to use a puller to get the old pump out. Re-tightened and leak checked with no issues. It's just two bolts, not all the case bolts. |
yep that's my project next week. what did you use on the paper gaskets?? |
I was avoiding answering that question in the other post!  The engine builder who built my long block used Orange RTV on both gaskets, not a lot, but some. They came off with a razorblade. The gaskets that came with the kit are like onion skins they are so thin. I had a small tube of black gasket maker good for oil and gas. I just got some of that between my thumb and forefinger and lightly smeared it on both sides of the gaskets. Had to be very careful not to tear the gasket, so just a very very thin layer, enough to make it tacky. It helped get the gasket positioned. I'm sure grease or oil would have worked too because the pump fitment on the case and cover are very precise. I had it so I used it. No leaks, so moving on...
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scrapyards are for quitters
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| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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denver_74
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 540
Location: Northern NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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Nice! Have you test fit the tins and pulley??
Many noted that the top fin needs to be ground off for proper fitment.
Removable apron must be nice lol
I saw the video where the dude used ultra black. Just a tiny but massaged into the paper. Looks like it works. I am hesitant because as you noted those gaskets are thin. Its going to be tricky
D74
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beetlenut
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Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 2981
Location: RI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| denver_74 wrote: |
Nice! Have you test fit the tins and pulley??
Many noted that the top fin needs to be ground off for proper fitment.
Removable apron must be nice lol
I saw the video where the dude used ultra black. Just a tiny but massaged into the paper. Looks like it works. I am hesitant because as you noted those gaskets are thin. Its going to be tricky
D74 |
You know you'd think after all this time, CB would modify the design of the pump outlet cover. Yes, I had to take about two inches of the top cooling fin off the cover plate for the pulley tin to fit right. Even then, I had to massage the pulley tin behind the pulley to make sure I had the clearance I was comfortable with. Can't imagine the frustration of putting everything back together and having the sound of the pulley scraping on the tin on startup.
Ultra Black is basically what I used. It was black but spread well if you were careful with it.
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
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| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31354
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| beetlenut wrote: |
Many noted that the top fin needs to be ground off for proper fitment.
You know you'd think after all this time, CB would modify the design of the pump outlet cover. Yes, I had to take about two inches of the top cooling fin off the cover plate for the pulley tin to fit right. |
Yes, sad. I had to clearance for my Claude's Buggies Maxi2 in the early 1980s, and see when the cover was re-made to state CB that this fin interference wasn't fixed.
Not dissimilar to Redline Weber adapters for my 1988 Mazda truck: the two aluminum adapters need to e sanded flat using a sheet of glass, and a notch made for a PCV hose. I bought my kit in 2004 and the same issues still are present.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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beetlenut
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 2981
Location: RI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| beetlenut wrote: |
Many noted that the top fin needs to be ground off for proper fitment.
You know you'd think after all this time, CB would modify the design of the pump outlet cover. Yes, I had to take about two inches of the top cooling fin off the cover plate for the pulley tin to fit right. |
Yes, sad. I had to clearance for my Claude's Buggies Maxi2 in the early 1980s, and see when the cover was re-made to state CB that this fin interference wasn't fixed.
Not dissimilar to Redline Weber adapters for my 1988 Mazda truck: the two aluminum adapters need to e sanded flat using a sheet of glass, and a notch made for a PCV hose. I bought my kit in 2004 and the same issues still are present. |
Cusser, how much additional oil would you say the pump filter adds to the system?
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31354
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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| beetlenut wrote: |
| Cusser, how much additional oil would you say the pump filter adds to the system? |
Beetlenut - that depends on the length of the filter used.
I use a filter of intermediate size on both my Maxi2 units, like L14670, PH16, or S16 size. So that is about 1 pint extra to fill the filter.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Paul Windisch
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Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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To be fair, the filter adapter was designed for a buggy or sand rail where generally there are no tins with which to contend. I mean, "Buggies" is the "B" in CB! 
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Marinablau703
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Joined: January 09, 2021
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Location: Hudson Valley/LI, NY
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Oil Pump Removal - Loosen Case Bolts? |
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OP, did you get the pump out? FWIW, I removed and replaced my pump last weekend, using only the puller. The pump had been in place for decades, but came out with little resistance via the puller (it does bath in oil, after all). I replaced it because the gear lash measured 0.009" and were visibly worn. As for the gaskets, I put a light coating of Permatex Indianhead gasket shellac on both the case and the pump cover rather than the gaskets, making sure to remove any excess. I used a Melling standard volume pump, as I'm only barely upsizing my engine (87.5mm pistons/jugs).
I'd try removal of the pump using the tool and only result to loosening case fasteners if the removal attempt is futile. |
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