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Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof!
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TMWheelock
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

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I haven't found anyone with this specific problem after a fair amount of Googling.

About a week an a half ago the support bar for the pop top went through the roof of my 84 Vanagon when trying to raise the top.

The bar had always been pretty difficult to lift so maybe there was too much pressure?

Now I'm wondering what the best way to repair it might be. My main concern is that it's at such a high pressure point seeing as that's the axis that the roof raises on.

I don't have any experience with fiberglass repair but I've read a bunch and watched some YouTube videos and checked out the posts on here about various roof cracks.

I'm thinking epoxy is probably best. I've been reading about the West System. I'm assuming I can basically treat this roof like a damaged boat hull?

Is it possible to repair this hole and give it enough strength to raise the roof without worry? Do I need to replace the roof?

Thanks so much!

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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

Wow! In 25 years of van ownership I've never heard of that happening. I would think the top could be repaired but then I would add some 16th inch metal plate on the inside under the mounts to add support. Or glass it in on the top. You will need to add some kind of reinforcement.

Someone long ago repaired a bumper with metal riveted on the inside. From the outside you could never tell.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

You should be able to repair that. It will take more than just using epoxy to glue the pieces together though. I'd be adding a 6" x 6" or so fiberglass plate to the inside and outside of the repair and reattaching the lift anchor.

Stop by a boatyard or maybe a West Marine store and talk to someone knowledgeable about boat repair. You are on the right track.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

After the fiberglass repair is completed read this thread and get the push bar fixed. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420614&highlight=poptop+push+bar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

Ugh. What's with all the tape residue? Was it leaking and the tape was used as an attempt to seal it? Something else?

Extended water intrusion will compromise fiberglass resulting in reduced strength.

Regardless, that's fixable. Paging DuncanS to the white courtesy phone?
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TMWheelock
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

Thanks for all the quick responses!

Jim - All the tape residue is because this happened on the first day of a seven day journey from FL to NY. Had to emergency repair with gorilla tape so water didn't get in. It's definitely ugly. Figured I'd fix that and repaint once the hole was repaired.

I've since taken the tape off and taped a piece of plastic over the hole.

PDXWesty - Exciting and terrifying that I've created a new issue that an experienced West owner such as yourself has never seen!

I'll look into incorporating a metal plate into the repair. I'll also look into fixing the pop bar.
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harvgwen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

I’m also wondering if your hinges are seized, causing the difficult opening? Also a pair of the assist lift struts (eg GW sells some) would ease some of the load, as you don’t want the same thing happening again after you repair the damage.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

It is repairable. As stated, find a boat shop to assist.

My top was in bad shape and I took it off and fixed several areas. I added stainless steel at the lift bar attachment points to strengthen the area.

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Lift Bar Repair by Patrick Brown, on Flickr
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well.

along with seeing what is up with the push bar i would strongly suggest pulling the rear hinges off and lubing them. i got mine so buttery smooth that when holding them closed in my hand and letting go of the bottom, they open under their own weight.

something tells me you have several compounding issues. if i were in your shoes i'd make a SS L bracket that would beef up that area and bolt thru that after i 'glassed that hole shut.

having the other 2 screws/bolts missing didn't not help your situation
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0cean
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

I would put a carbon fiber patch 8"-10" bigger then the hole on the inside and outside for repair. Its the best way to prevent this from happening again.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well.



Good eye.
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

re: comment on screws and tape residue.....

If (likely) water was coming in for some time at fail point on top, that water could've damaged the wood where screws secure. Inspect the wood frame.

This is a very minor detail, if even applicable. Installing 1/16" plate shouldn't make the tent noticeably tighter but if it does, IIRC, SAE size clevis pins have a smaller OD than the OE pins at top/bottom end where arms mount to bracket. Installing SAE clevis pins might help reduce tension at tent. With the top raised, propped up, those pins can be swapped out one by one.

With only a solar panel on top, functioning OE springs/cables in arms, aftermarket medium strength lift assists, my top supports itself when partially opened. i.e. along with reducing stress on arms while raising the top, those lift assists must also take at least some load off arms when the top is fully raised.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well...


My 84 has never had them (if this is what you're referring to). Did later Westies use those holes?

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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well...


My 84 has never had them (if this is what you're referring to). Did later Westies use those holes?


my '83 did/does
though the tent was replaced at least once before i got to replacing it as well. it all appeared to be original though...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
My 84 has never had them .... Did later Westies use those [screw] holes?


Good "catch".

This may be one key difference between later style non stapled tents and staple type tents. The latter requires a wood frame for staples that secure tent to pop top.

My '88 with non staple tent does not have screws at holes in each bracket. I don't see this in Ahwahnees' '84 but on mine, there's a plate wider than the bracket in between each bracket and underside of top. edit: I'm quite sure those plates are original.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well...


My 84 has never had them (if this is what you're referring to). Did later Westies use those holes?


my 84 with the original tent had them, as have bay windows i have done top work on. i just assumed they all were like that
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Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

I like ocean’s carbon fiber repair idea, a lot. Use the tech!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

I would take it to a boat repair shop and ask them to use fiberglass cloth instead of the chopped mat that the top is made of (like a shower stall). Make sure they understand the force involved and that the repair needs to be stronger than the original top. Sure it will cost a little but it's the kind of job you only want to do once, plus they can make it look like it was originally.

Was there a big load on it when it broke? If not you need to find out why so much force was used. Poptop shocks will help.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

This is still a bit baffling. There are vans with way too much rack, etc. on the top of the roof and it seems no one has ever seen this happen. My van was one of those vans with four bars, a box, a steel basket a spare tire and it sometimes needed two people to lift it but it never busted through the roof.

1 - This should give pause to folks with too much stuff on the roof and maybe provide incentive to ensure the same won't happen on their roof.

2 - I mentioned weakened fiberglass due to water intrusion. What else could cause this? Is it likely that the rear hinges were seized requiring that extra force be transmitted through the roof to raise them? It doesn't seem like a seized push bar would increase the force on that part of the roof.

Mysterious.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
This is still a bit baffling. ....

2 - I mentioned weakened fiberglass due to water intrusion. What else could cause this? Is it likely that the rear hinges were seized requiring that extra force be transmitted through the roof to raise them? It doesn't seem like a seized push bar would increase the force on that part of the roof.



Was that pop top repainted? i.e. it's not an OE colour?

The bolt heads are pretty rusty. I agree. Water ingress was likely the culprit.

If those bolts were removed, then reinstalled without putty to seal them, water might get in between the bolt heads and top and seep into the matt. And if the bolts were overtightened, that might crush the fibreglass matt at the bolt heads.

If the push bar joints were super worn out and the top kind of "clunked" into place as it was raised, that might create a "jolt" of impact to the parts concerned. Maybe.... Wink

Difficulty in raising the top could be due to a broken spring cable(s) in the assembly that raises the top.

Neil.
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