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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16859 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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jimf909 wrote: |
2 - I mentioned weakened fiberglass due to water intrusion. What else could cause this? Is it likely that the rear hinges were seized requiring that extra force be transmitted through the roof to raise them? It doesn't seem like a seized push bar would increase the force on that part of the roof.
Mysterious. |
the only way i could see FG get weak is when the bolts corrode and blister out. if water got in and froze....well, bobs your uncle.
i suspect the rear hinges need some attention and/or the lift bar is getting worn.
i took my lift bar apart and it was perfect so i lucked out. like i said a few posts up my hinges will now open under their own weight. my top pops up almost on it's own with very little effort and will stay in almost any position i put it in from barely open to full lock.
i still think it's odd it's missing the screws that also go into the wood. some claim theirs didn't have them, but parts book shows 4 on an 84:
every bay window i have done with this style roof has always had those screws. either westfaila had a guy shoving them in their pockets or previous owners never put them back _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10367 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
i still think it's odd it's missing the screws that also go into the wood. some claim theirs didn't have them, but parts book shows 4 on an 84:
every bay window i have done with this style roof has always had those screws. either westfaila had a guy shoving them in their pockets or previous owners never put them back |
I don't know which year or years the change from staple secured tent to screw/metal strip secured tent happened but the tent on my '88 uses the latter method and is "missing" those screws just like Ahwahnee' '84 shows. It appears that Ahwahnee has the "screw in" type tent.
For an '88:
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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TMWheelock Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2021 Posts: 18 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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Wow so many responses and such good ideas since I posted this yesterday.
Amazed with this community, makes me feel like I made a good decision buying my Westy.
skills@eurocarsplus
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you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well. |
I can confirm that the pop top canvas was replaced with a GoWesty aftermarket version. I'm thinking that when the previous owners put it all back together they may have forgotten to replace those screws. Should I add them now?
0cean
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I would put a carbon fiber patch 8"-10" bigger then the hole on the inside and outside for repair. Its the best way to prevent this from happening again. |
I'm going to do this, do you think I should put it on top and bottom or just the top?
As far as load, that top had nothing on it when this happened. I've inspected the bars since then and I can't find any sort of springs anywhere. I'll check the Betley manual to make sure I'm looking in the right place.
The push joints may be worn out because the top definitely "clunked" into place.
As far as the top being repainted there's nothing in the repair history that I have that says anything about it. The push bar was painted brown at some point.
So for the solution do you think it would be worth having a boat repair person re-fiberglass the forward third of the top where the bolt holes are? Or is that overkill and I could just get by with fixing the hole with epoxy and carbon fiber?
Seems I should also consider replacing all the rusted bolts on top and putty underneath them to insure no leakage?
There headliner in the interior is pretty clean, i.e. no water spots or signs of intrusion that I can see. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16501 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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TMWheelock wrote: |
So for the solution do you think it would be worth having a boat repair person re-fiberglass the forward third of the top where the bolt holes are? Or is that overkill and I could just get by with fixing the hole with epoxy and carbon fiber?
Seems I should also consider replacing all the rusted bolts on top and putty underneath them to insure no leakage?
There headliner in the interior is pretty clean, i.e. no water spots or signs of intrusion that I can see. |
The repair needs to have some sort of plate on the bottom inside the top at least. You should only need to repair and add reinforcement about 6"x6" or 8"x8". The top is usually very strong. I do not think any work is needed on the rest of the top. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16859 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
For an '88:
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not trying to be argumentative but i looked it up for an 88:
still showing the screws.
thing is when i was doing my top or bay tops for that matter without those screws in place the top had a lot of "rack" in it. it was basically a wobbly mess if the H bar wasn't tied into the wood.
i guess it's a mystery how some have them and some don't. i 100% believe they belong there based on the bay window bus tops i have fooled with and strongly suggest every vanagon has them installed as well.
to the o/p
i for sure would put them in. feel around in that area, you should feel the holes thru the fabric _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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0cean Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012 Posts: 1149 Location: California
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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TMWheelock wrote: |
Wow so many responses and such good ideas since I posted this yesterday.
Amazed with this community, makes me feel like I made a good decision buying my Westy.
skills@eurocarsplus
Quote: |
you're missing the screws/bolts that go horizontally into the wood frame of the pop top as well. |
I can confirm that the pop top canvas was replaced with a GoWesty aftermarket version. I'm thinking that when the previous owners put it all back together they may have forgotten to replace those screws. Should I add them now?
0cean
Quote: |
I would put a carbon fiber patch 8"-10" bigger then the hole on the inside and outside for repair. Its the best way to prevent this from happening again. |
I'm going to do this, do you think I should put it on top and bottom or just the top?
As far as load, that top had nothing on it when this happened. I've inspected the bars since then and I can't find any sort of springs anywhere. I'll check the Betley manual to make sure I'm looking in the right place.
The push joints may be worn out because the top definitely "clunked" into place.
As far as the top being repainted there's nothing in the repair history that I have that says anything about it. The push bar was painted brown at some point.
So for the solution do you think it would be worth having a boat repair person re-fiberglass the forward third of the top where the bolt holes are? Or is that overkill and I could just get by with fixing the hole with epoxy and carbon fiber?
Seems I should also consider replacing all the rusted bolts on top and putty underneath them to insure no leakage?
There headliner in the interior is pretty clean, i.e. no water spots or signs of intrusion that I can see. |
If it was me, this is how i would repair it.
1. Sand a 10" area around the hole all the way through the paint. (You want to get to fresh fiberglass.)
2. Drill 6-10 1/4 inch holes around the broken area through the fiberglass. This will let the resin touch top and bottom for added strength.
3. Place 8"-10" carbon fiber patch on the bottom with Epoxy resin from a boat supply. Note: (Home depo stuff is not as strong or long lasting. Follow the mixing directions very closely.. You don't want uncured soup.) also, Place the old fiberglass in the hole so its flush with the top and bottom. Just put it in place without adding epoxy. Don't want to much weight.
4. Let it site for 45mins or so and then do the top patch. Fill the holes you drilled with resin and all around and in-between the old fiberglass piece.
5. Let cure.
6. Sand smooth and paint.
I've done a lot of surfboard building and glassing work over the last 15 years. This is the best way to fix it permanently. IMHO _________________ I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569920&highlight=
Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
(Number of Different Donor VW Vans Body Parts Used: 12)
(Number of completely different vehicles parts used: 3)
Last edited by 0cean on Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9797 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
...i guess it's a mystery how some have them and some don't. i 100% believe they belong there based on the bay window bus tops i have fooled with and strongly suggest every vanagon has them installed as well... |
My 84 never had them and I don't see how they could be used as there is nothing along side the bracket but a channel of unsubstantial fiberglass:
The channel is empty except where little wooden block have been inserted to accept staples:
I made bigger blocks to make stapling easier and allow larger staples. It might offer some support for those screws but the original wood blocks would not have helped:
Of course the stapled bit is then covered with aluminum strips to secure the canvas:
I'm thinking various years differed in tent attachment and thus not all used those screws on the side of the brackets. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10367 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
not trying to be argumentative but i looked it up for an 88:
still showing the screws.
i guess it's a mystery how some have them and some don't. i 100% believe they belong there based on the bay window bus tops i have fooled with and strongly suggest every vanagon has them installed as well.
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No worries. No feeling of "argumentative" here.
Using the online etka type web site, I could not find drawings for the '81 - '85 of those parts.
Based on the image below, my guess is that after VW/Westfalia redesigned how the top skirt of tent mounts, i.e. after deleting the wood framing member where those screws attach, they must've seen a need to improve lateral stability at that bracket. I'd guess that someone like crazyvwvanman on this forum would know about changes made during production.
@ TMWheelock
Sorry if I mislead you with my "clunk" comment. It's normal for the top to "clunk" as the arms "lock" into place. I thought that if there was excessive wear, play, at push bar to upper arm, that play might allow the top to "drop" a bit as its raised.
The springs I referred to assist in raising and lowering the top. it's actually a really clever design. In each lower arm, a thick long narrow spring is operated by a cable. Top down, feel around the exposed portion of "knee" joint of raising assembly for the cable. If the cable is loose, it's broken. Even if just one side has failed, the top gets much harder to lift and lower. BTDT.
Neil.
bracket, plate, on my 1988 (Canadian version if it matters) Westfalia
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3274 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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It may be my memory failing, but I have never seen an American-spec nor a Canadian-spec Westy ('85 and newer) that did not have those steel reinforcement plates. The plates are almost always rusty on all the specimens that I have seen, so that may explain why some folks don't have them - - they throw the rusty plates out when replacing the pop-top tent. The rust stains in the pop-top flocking are impossible to completely remove, but you can get most of the stains out. A stainless steel plate is the best solution. Note that the 90 degree flange was designed into that plate to give the plate even more rigidity. (On my rigs, I sand-blasted the plates and epoxy primed them before painting.)
To the OP: I suspect that the missing plate is the single largest contributor to your fibreglass failure, but all the causes other mentioned above (like water ingress) contribute also. The scissor hinge does not work properly if the bolts fastening the pop-top to the scissor hinge are loose. Lubing the scissor hinge is also very important. I have noticed that the fibreglass on the early "woody" pop-tops ('80 to '84?) seems thinner, FWIW. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2319 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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My '84 hasn't got that plate, nor has it any side screws - there's a big gap between the hinge and the side channel.
My pop-top has a Thule on top with HD gas supports - it normally goes up and down very easily. However, occasionally it's a right bugger to get to start to go up, especially after standing in the sun for a few days. The front lip seal gets stuck to the luggage rack, so I have to give an extra thump on each front corner to unstick it before it's possible to lift.
I can readily understand that something like that has happened in the past, weakening a water-compromised fibreglass structure over time. With frozen hinges as well, I'm surprised this hasn't been reported before (AFAIK). _________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16859 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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Ahwahnee wrote: |
I'm thinking various years differed in tent attachment and thus not all used those screws on the side of the brackets. |
could be. mine was a staple in tent
i suppose it's possible if the tent was the screw in style on top and bottom it may not have had them, which is pretty stupid imho
like i said i have only done bays until my 84. take what i say with a grain of salt and a shot of whiskey _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4770 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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Howesight wrote: |
It may be my memory failing, but I have never seen an American-spec nor a Canadian-spec Westy ('85 and newer) that did not have those steel reinforcement plates. |
i had to go out and look: my dead stock 87 does NOT have them, my 89 does! _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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TMWheelock Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2021 Posts: 18 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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The plot thickens...
On closer examination it looks like there was almost definitely water intrusion at some point.
I'm also missing the reenforcement plates that others have mentioned.
The bracket on the as of now undamaged side shows significant rust as does the roof release bracket. Photos below.
Does anyone sell the roof brackets? I did a little research but didn't find much.
All this being said should I reenforce the drivers side bracket along with the passenger side bracket?
I want to do whatever I can to avoid repeating this problem.
I can also confirm that I do have springs in the arms. As another commentator said the arms will have trouble working if the bolts attaching them to the roof are not tight. That may be the case as I'm finding a lot of rusted bolts.
Also I felt around to see if there were holes for screws to go into where the bracket seems to be missing one and didn't feel anything. I suppose I could drill into the frame and add them myself.
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2795 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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No plate but yes side screws. My top is a transplant from an 80.
TMwheellock, was this van parked in a grassy field for a long time, next to an ocean, or similar? To me that rust looks like it was caused by internal condensation not external intrusion.
Again, I like oceans plan for carbon fiber repair. I also have repaired boards, as well as bike frames, using carbon fiber patches and they work. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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TMWheelock Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2021 Posts: 18 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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This is indeed a Florida van so it was parked maybe 45 minutes from the Gulf of Mexico for the last eight years at least.
It was also parked on a homestead where there are many trees and much grass.
Could indeed be from internal condensation.
I'll follow ocean's protocol for the repair maybe combining it with the epoxy advice from the West system.
Should I add a plate to reinforce the side that's undamaged? |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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As a boat builder who has repaired Vanagon bumpers and other items, the following are my opinions.
Epoxy is the way to go. 10 oz fiberglass cloth is the way to go. 2" disposable bristle brushes are the way to go. Do not use foam brushes.
1. Grind completely through the top making a hole 6" in diameter and bevel the hole back 4" from its edge. In other words, a ground depression 14" in diameter. Obviously, this is not possible because of the proximity to the edge of the top, but take the hole right to the edge and the feathered taper down the sides.
2. Back the bottom with a piece of plywood sandwiching waxed paper between the ply and the top. Sheetrock screw the ply to the roof right through the ply and roof about an inch in from the full thickness of the unground roof. In other words, the screws will poke up through the roof in the feathered zone. Remove the screws one at a time and replace with brass.
3. Grind the brass screws flush with the top feathered surface.
4. Paint mixed West epoxy resin 105 with 205 slow cure hardener all over the feathered areas.
5. Place a precut piece of 10 oz fiberglass cloth over the hole which laps up about an inch onto the feathered area and wet it out with more resin stippled on. Use a segmented roller to insure wetting out of the fibers.
6. Another piece of cloth 1" bigger and repeat 5.
7. Keep doing this until you have about 5 layers or whatever it takes to build up a thickness greater than the thickness of the original top. You can do this all in one shot, but do not mix more than two squirts of resin from the pump at one time as heat will build up in your coffee cup mix and the epoxy will go off prematurely.
8 Grind it flat the next day and add more cloth if you have low spots.
9. Flip it over, remove the screws and plywood and waxed paper as best you can. Grind a dished area around the patch and go back to step 4. Two layers of cloth should be enough on the underside, so the feathered/tapered area doesn't need to extend more than about an 1 ½ beyond the original hole you made.
10. Clean up the underside and fair both top and bottom surfaces with epoxy thickened to a peanut butter consistency with 407 filler. Depending on how fussy you are, you may need to repeat this step 3 or 4 times to get a perfect surface without divots and ripples.
Sand to a decent surface, prime and paint.
You are now ready to remount the hardware and do not need any metal reinforcing underneath. The patch is far stronger than the rest of the top when new. And your patch is large so it will distribute the loads over a large area.
And Skills was right. Water entered from the mounting bolt holes and soaked the poorly laid up polyester mat and resin and when it froze, weakened it to destruction. Bed your new bolts carefully with Boatlife caulk.
Have fun and welcome to the club of discovering poorly made and maintained parts of your T3. You have a land yacht. Yachts need a lot of care. They are not turn-the-key-and-have-it-all-rosy.
Duncan |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7623
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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My 85 doesn’t have the side screws or plate. Judging by the flocking on inside roof. It never did. However the ass hat who installed the previous owners very expensive tent. Didn’t tighten down the right rear nut on the bracket bolt to the pop top. The nut was hanging on the last thread I took care of that. Had to hold the bolt outside with vice grips like a surgeon as I snugged up the nut from the inside. Kinda of PITA 11:00 at night and a few beers in. No signs of water intrusion on the flocking, thankfully. Probably because another genius covered the bolt head on the exterior in dumb dumb goo. WTF. Thank you TMWheelock for making me check that out. Good luck with your fix. _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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some Yoga chicks shouldn't be on the roof
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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TMWheelock wrote: |
Wow so many responses and such good ideas since I posted this yesterday.
Amazed with this community, makes me feel like I made a good decision buying my Westy.
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It's the honeymoon chapter. Just don't ask about engine conversions, which oil to use or what's the best 14" tire/wheel combo.
p.s. read the DuncanS post. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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TMWheelock Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2021 Posts: 18 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Poptop Lift Bar Went Through Roof! |
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Thanks again for all the thoughtful responses. I'm actually looking forward to this fiberglass repair.
I feel empowered with all of your collective knowledge.
It will be a welcome respite from the idle hunting problem I'm also trying to solve. |
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