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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:54 pm Post subject: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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I admit this is sort of a discussion that would normally go on in the Whine thread on the site but I thought it might be valuable in this case to have a dedicated thread s it's not buried in there.
This "1959" 23-Window Bus is for sale right now in Florida:
https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1481319/1959...rida-32207
Actual Seller:
https://www.classicmotorcars.com/vehicles/145/1959-volkswagen-microbus-23-window-samba
Ad text
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Documented Authentic Samba, Collector Owned
This beautiful Samba is better than new, immaculately restored in its original Sealing Wax Red color. The interior has been reupholstered in an attractive light gray vinyl with dark gray accents and 2-tone side panels. This 8-seater model was configured from the factory with a walkthrough cabin. A dash mounted clock and Wolfsburg crested steering wheel round out the interior. All of the glass has proper 'Sigla" Germany markings while the front flip-out safari windshield glass panels are ready to give the driver and passenger all the air flow they could ask for. The undercarriage also received a large degree of attention and is just as clean as the rest of the vehicle. Mechanically, the car runs and drives excellently showing only 330 miles on the odometer following its comprehensive restoration. The original 1,192cc engine was replaced with a more potent 1,600cc dual port engine for increased power and better driving experience. Additionally, the transaxle was upgraded with 3.44:1 gearing ratio for better highway-speed cruising capabilities.
Comes complete with Volkswagen AutoMuseum Birth Certificate.
This impeccable Samba would make a wonderful addition to any collection. |
It was also previous on this site in Jan/Feb, 2021:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2448202
Florida dealer reselling it? For another person or the same person? I don't know.
A few photos below:
Front:
VIN plate area:
Birth Certificate:
Issue:
329 207 is NOT a VIN # from February, 1959.
It's from February, 1958
This Bus generally looks like a '59 to me
1959 cargo door
1959-up decklid
etc.
So wrong VIN #?
VIN swap?
Is it a real original 23-Window?
I can't read the stamped-in VIN # above but the VIN plate does sort of look like it has the VIN # listed above.
Anyone else have an opinion?
Another issue I noticed is that the driver's walk-thru seat seat area only has TWO knobs:
It should have 3 knobs - larger heater knob, fuel reserve, and manual choke.
Like this:
Any feedback or comments on it welcome.
Someone asked me to look at it and I identified some of the strangeness above and said I would start a thread to get the general Forum's feedback on anything else they might see. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
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BUCIOBATISTI Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002 Posts: 6956 Location: San Diego, California, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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The bottom of the Birth Certificate shows the top color as Chestnut Brown. _________________ Please check us out on Instagram at @holygrailgarage
That's the best place to see the latest things we are up to as well as catch an occasional sneak peek of our latest car and parts listings! |
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62DoKaGuy Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2011 Posts: 1276 Location: Surprise, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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I didn’t find any pictures of underside or the vin stamping in engine compartment. Were there any in the previous TS ad? _________________ ,,Wenige Menschen denken, und doch wollen alle entscheiden.'' -der Alte Fritz
EverettB wrote: |
...I went at it from both ends but going from the rear didn't seem to do anything, although I did spray some rust breaker in there... |
4/62 Double Cab
5/61 Panel (sold)
4/59 Single Cab (sold) |
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Clara Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003 Posts: 12401
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Yes, you'd expect a deluxe with that VIN to be SWR/CB, and have the flat engine lid & flat cargo Door like EB said.
You'd also expect the VIN to be clearly stamped in the engine compartment.
When did they stop the ribbed air vent? After Jan 1958.
missing ebrake metal boot
church key goes in pocket, should not have church key bracket by door
missing vinyl on parcel tray _________________ The Obsolete Air-Cooled Documentation Project http://oacdp.org/ |
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KWZ Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004 Posts: 1341 Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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This reminds me of my favorite Bible quote. I think its in the the Old Testament somewhere in Leviticus:
"If any 21/23 is not original paint, stay the fuck away from it." _________________ '57 sunroof Standard
'63 15 window
'65 Westy SO44 |
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Riff Raff Shivering Sambian
Joined: October 25, 2004 Posts: 3097 Location: Alberta
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Perhaps the Birth Certificate is a forgery?
Feb 58 would still have the VIN under the name plate and it sure looks like it isn't there.
Something seems a little fishy. _________________ The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge
- Daniel Boorstin |
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earlywesty Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2004 Posts: 2358 Location: In the woods, Ontario
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Clara wrote: |
Yes, you'd expect a deluxe with that VIN to be SWR/CB, and have the flat engine lid & flat cargo Door like EB said.
You'd also expect the VIN to be clearly stamped in the engine compartment.
When did they stop the ribbed air vent? After Jan 1958.
missing ebrake metal boot
church key goes in pocket, should not have church key bracket by door
missing vinyl on parcel tray |
Ribbed air vent stopped in late Feb 58. My march 7 58 does not have it. A friends 2/58 deluxe was ribbed and was 326xxx |
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velvetgreen Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 2746 Location: Canada
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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KWZ wrote: |
This reminds me of my favorite Bible quote. I think its in the the Old Testament somewhere in Leviticus:
"If any 21/23 is not original paint, stay the fuck away from it." |
Absolutely. One of my favorite verses.
IF, and that is a big IF, the birth certificate is right, then this would be a a very rare bus. There is only one known deluxe that was a walkthrough built prior to the '59 model year. (There is another '58 deluxe that was retrofitted with a walkthrough section at the factory in 1959). I am very suspicious of any completely redone deluxe sunroof that does not have extensive documentation pre-restoration. I assume that the reason they are not showing before pictures is because it was so terrible that nobody would buy it if they knew what it was to start with. Buses with a big hole in the roof are much more susceptible to getting rained inside and rusty.
Which would you rather have, a formerly terribly rusty overworked shiny deluxe or a 23-window conversion on a solid non-deluxe base car? Personally, I wouldn't touch either. Hence the above quoted bible verse.... _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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obus Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2001 Posts: 11070 Location: just off Garden State Parkway Exit 81
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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BUCIOBATISTI wrote: |
The bottom of the Birth Certificate shows the top color as Chestnut Brown. |
Yes, I noticed that too, almost like they knew it was a '58 from the VIN # but then messed up and put 1959 on everything.
Weird... _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Last edited by EverettB on Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Riff Raff wrote: |
Perhaps the Birth Certificate is a forgery?
Feb 58 would still have the VIN under the name plate and it sure looks like it isn't there.
Something seems a little fishy. |
I see some numbers there in this pic
It's really filled in with paint so I cannot read it.
Found a couple more pics on the auction page above, hard to see any stamped-in VIN here
VIN plate numbers don't look normal to me?
1956 plate for comparison
1958 plate
M-code plate for this Bus:
This M-code plate is a reproduction.
They made some mistakes. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Last edited by EverettB on Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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obus wrote: |
whenever i see the 8 oval top window seals standing out like kardashian fish lips it sets off the red flag for me. |
A good point and something to examine.
This is common thing seen on the Brazilian sunroof roof conversions. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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EverettB wrote: |
M-code plate for this Bus.
Without saying the specific details in public, I did some comparisons against originals and I believe this M-code plate is a reproduction. |
I agree. There is absolutely no way that, or any M-code plate is original on bus number 329207.
among many other things:
Lowest chassis number on an M-code plate? 397452
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=135271 _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Lind wrote: |
EverettB wrote: |
M-code plate for this Bus.
Without saying the specific details in public, I did some comparisons against originals and I believe this M-code plate is a reproduction. |
I agree. There is absolutely no way that, or any M-code plate is original on bus number 329207.
among many other things:
Lowest chassis number on an M-code plate? 397452
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=135271 |
Doh! I forgot that a Bus with that VIN wouldn't even have an M-code plate in the first place.
Thanks for pointing that out. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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sled Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 6179
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bob1 Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2000 Posts: 45
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Doh, i'm the legal owner of the real 329207
and I think that my bus is known,
I have full history, original VIN plate, Old German fahrzeug brief and testemonies from engeneers who worked on it during its 18 months serivice as test car in Technische Entwickelung in Wolfsburg VW facvtories in 1958/59....
I feel so sorry for my bus now its a victim of identity fraude...
Wrote the seller a message, he can't say he's not aware now...
I think my Deluxe is enough discussed on TheSamba so if you dig hard enough everybody can find it...
if You don't and you're not convinced just PM me and I send you pictures of my real VIN.... |
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BonTonRoulet Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2020 Posts: 363 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:13 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Oh wow. This whole thing just turned into an episode of "Dateline" with the creepy narrator guy that says "ooooooohhhh" and "ummmmmmm" all the time! |
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