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1959 Restored 23-Window feedback
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EverettB Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

I admit this is sort of a discussion that would normally go on in the Whine thread on the site but I thought it might be valuable in this case to have a dedicated thread s it's not buried in there.

This "1959" 23-Window Bus is for sale right now in Florida:
https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1481319/1959...rida-32207
Actual Seller:
https://www.classicmotorcars.com/vehicles/145/1959-volkswagen-microbus-23-window-samba

Ad text
Quote:
Documented Authentic Samba, Collector Owned

This beautiful Samba is better than new, immaculately restored in its original Sealing Wax Red color. The interior has been reupholstered in an attractive light gray vinyl with dark gray accents and 2-tone side panels. This 8-seater model was configured from the factory with a walkthrough cabin. A dash mounted clock and Wolfsburg crested steering wheel round out the interior. All of the glass has proper 'Sigla" Germany markings while the front flip-out safari windshield glass panels are ready to give the driver and passenger all the air flow they could ask for. The undercarriage also received a large degree of attention and is just as clean as the rest of the vehicle. Mechanically, the car runs and drives excellently showing only 330 miles on the odometer following its comprehensive restoration. The original 1,192cc engine was replaced with a more potent 1,600cc dual port engine for increased power and better driving experience. Additionally, the transaxle was upgraded with 3.44:1 gearing ratio for better highway-speed cruising capabilities.

Comes complete with Volkswagen AutoMuseum Birth Certificate.

This impeccable Samba would make a wonderful addition to any collection.


It was also previous on this site in Jan/Feb, 2021:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2448202
Florida dealer reselling it? For another person or the same person? I don't know.

A few photos below:
Front:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

VIN plate area:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Birth Certificate:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Issue:
329 207 is NOT a VIN # from February, 1959.
It's from February, 1958

This Bus generally looks like a '59 to me
1959 cargo door
1959-up decklid
etc.

So wrong VIN #?
VIN swap?
Is it a real original 23-Window?
I can't read the stamped-in VIN # above but the VIN plate does sort of look like it has the VIN # listed above.
Anyone else have an opinion?

Another issue I noticed is that the driver's walk-thru seat seat area only has TWO knobs:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It should have 3 knobs - larger heater knob, fuel reserve, and manual choke.
Like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Any feedback or comments on it welcome.
Someone asked me to look at it and I identified some of the strangeness above and said I would start a thread to get the general Forum's feedback on anything else they might see.
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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

The bottom of the Birth Certificate shows the top color as Chestnut Brown.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

I didn’t find any pictures of underside or the vin stamping in engine compartment. Were there any in the previous TS ad?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Yes, you'd expect a deluxe with that VIN to be SWR/CB, and have the flat engine lid & flat cargo Door like EB said.
You'd also expect the VIN to be clearly stamped in the engine compartment.

When did they stop the ribbed air vent? After Jan 1958.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


missing ebrake metal boot
church key goes in pocket, should not have church key bracket by door
missing vinyl on parcel tray
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

This reminds me of my favorite Bible quote. I think its in the the Old Testament somewhere in Leviticus:

"If any 21/23 is not original paint, stay the fuck away from it."
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Perhaps the Birth Certificate is a forgery?

Feb 58 would still have the VIN under the name plate and it sure looks like it isn't there.
Something seems a little fishy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Clara wrote:
Yes, you'd expect a deluxe with that VIN to be SWR/CB, and have the flat engine lid & flat cargo Door like EB said.
You'd also expect the VIN to be clearly stamped in the engine compartment.

When did they stop the ribbed air vent? After Jan 1958.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


missing ebrake metal boot
church key goes in pocket, should not have church key bracket by door
missing vinyl on parcel tray

Ribbed air vent stopped in late Feb 58. My march 7 58 does not have it. A friends 2/58 deluxe was ribbed and was 326xxx
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velvetgreen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Deja Vu? https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=694683&highlight=
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

KWZ wrote:
This reminds me of my favorite Bible quote. I think its in the the Old Testament somewhere in Leviticus:

"If any 21/23 is not original paint, stay the fuck away from it."

Absolutely. One of my favorite verses. Wink


IF, and that is a big IF, the birth certificate is right, then this would be a a very rare bus. There is only one known deluxe that was a walkthrough built prior to the '59 model year. (There is another '58 deluxe that was retrofitted with a walkthrough section at the factory in 1959). I am very suspicious of any completely redone deluxe sunroof that does not have extensive documentation pre-restoration. I assume that the reason they are not showing before pictures is because it was so terrible that nobody would buy it if they knew what it was to start with. Buses with a big hole in the roof are much more susceptible to getting rained inside and rusty.

Which would you rather have, a formerly terribly rusty overworked shiny deluxe or a 23-window conversion on a solid non-deluxe base car? Personally, I wouldn't touch either. Hence the above quoted bible verse....
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

whenever i see the 8 oval top window seals standing out like kardashian fish lips it sets off the red flag for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

BUCIOBATISTI wrote:
The bottom of the Birth Certificate shows the top color as Chestnut Brown.


Yes, I noticed that too, almost like they knew it was a '58 from the VIN # but then messed up and put 1959 on everything.

Weird...
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Last edited by EverettB on Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

62DoKaGuy wrote:
I didn’t find any pictures of underside or the vin stamping in engine compartment. Were there any in the previous TS ad?


A couple are sort of blurry but I found a few
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Found out it was just auctioned off so this place is flipping it too

May, 2021 auction
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26618/lot/112/

A few more detailed pics here too
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Riff Raff wrote:
Perhaps the Birth Certificate is a forgery?

Feb 58 would still have the VIN under the name plate and it sure looks like it isn't there.
Something seems a little fishy.


I see some numbers there in this pic
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's really filled in with paint so I cannot read it.

Found a couple more pics on the auction page above, hard to see any stamped-in VIN here
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


VIN plate numbers don't look normal to me?
1956 plate for comparison
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

1958 plate
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


M-code plate for this Bus:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This M-code plate is a reproduction.
They made some mistakes. Smile
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Last edited by EverettB on Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

obus wrote:
whenever i see the 8 oval top window seals standing out like kardashian fish lips it sets off the red flag for me.


A good point and something to examine.
This is common thing seen on the Brazilian sunroof roof conversions.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
M-code plate for this Bus.
Without saying the specific details in public, I did some comparisons against originals and I believe this M-code plate is a reproduction.

I agree. There is absolutely no way that, or any M-code plate is original on bus number 329207.

among many other things:
Lowest chassis number on an M-code plate? 397452
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=135271
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Lind wrote:
EverettB wrote:
M-code plate for this Bus.
Without saying the specific details in public, I did some comparisons against originals and I believe this M-code plate is a reproduction.

I agree. There is absolutely no way that, or any M-code plate is original on bus number 329207.

among many other things:
Lowest chassis number on an M-code plate? 397452
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=135271


Doh! I forgot that a Bus with that VIN wouldn't even have an M-code plate in the first place.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

painfully obvious this bus is a disaster.


is it just me or does the hubcap logo seem to be stamped outwards?

https://images2.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2021-03/18/25063237-1-17.jpg
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Doh, i'm the legal owner of the real 329207

and I think that my bus is known,

I have full history, original VIN plate, Old German fahrzeug brief and testemonies from engeneers who worked on it during its 18 months serivice as test car in Technische Entwickelung in Wolfsburg VW facvtories in 1958/59....

I feel so sorry for my bus now its a victim of identity fraude...

Wrote the seller a message, he can't say he's not aware now...

I think my Deluxe is enough discussed on TheSamba so if you dig hard enough everybody can find it...

if You don't and you're not convinced just PM me and I send you pictures of my real VIN....
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Oh wow. This whole thing just turned into an episode of "Dateline" with the creepy narrator guy that says "ooooooohhhh" and "ummmmmmm" all the time!
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