1959 Restored 23-Window feedback

[PeteSC]

[FarmerBill]

[AS350driver]

^^^^^^^^^
Bingo!

For a fraudster bus, it’s pretty decent though. They didn’t even use Bondo in the rusty frame rails like the previous fake ‘59 that went through Mecum.

[Erik G]

[jimgraydesigns]

Good evening, Samba 'Mites'

I think this is my first post in many years?
I have been following this thread since Everett put it up on June 16 and I have to say it has been educational and interesting on equal levels...

I live in Tallahassee, Fl and was back on Amelia Island for my 9th showing of my concours '67 21-Window Bus (purchased from a guy named 'Crash' in Enciniitis, Ca. in October 1991. (by the way, if anyone happens to know the whereabouts of 'Crash' I would love to re-connect with him!) I have an old phone number, but it's long gone silent.

I flew my Dad and I out to San Diego on Halloween day and we drove it home to Tallahassee! What a road trip...
Dad turned 88 this year and was back at Amelia Island with me and the Bus.
Sorry, to digress~

I was at Bonhams this year, but missed the Bus by a few hours...
When it showed up at Lew's Classic Motorcars in Jacksonville a week later,
I contacted him about some discrepancies I found in both the Bonhams photos and the ones that Lew had taken for his site.
He was very receptive to the issues; in fact, when I told him it might be a forgery and offered some supporting facts, he was appreciative.

We started communicating regularly as he was in contact with Bonhams and they assured him they would get to the bottom of the situation.
Lew did not go to Bonhams to buy the Bus; in fact, he has little interest in VWs. This example came across the stage; he hadn't even looked at it earlier. The bidding started low and pretty much stayed there. A friend who was with him told him that if it were real (which they both believed it had to be) it might be a $140,000 Bus~

There was never any doubt in their minds that it wasn't real.
It was only after I raised some questions about its past and mentioned a few details that Everett had relayed onto me, did Lew start to think he might have an issue. He is a very nice person, who has a wonderful collection of cars and spends his time finding and buying things he likes.

I reached out to Rupert at Bonhams who was responsible for the listing and received a nice short response that they were taking this very seriously and would not comment any further.

I took my Dad home today and had to pass through Jacksonville, so I called Lew and asked if I could stop by and meet him and see his collection.
Of course, I wanted to look over the Bus.
He was gracious and forthcoming and feels really weird about the whole situation. He mentioned he had dealt with Bonhams for 6 years; spent a lot of money with them and was confident they would get this resolved.

I left after 45 minutes feeling really good about Lew.
He may be another victim in a long line of buyers?
I will say this... I would buy a car from him...no question.

I have read all the threads since Everett posted the first one and I wonder if this couldn't be an authentic '59 with a bad BC and a number of 'mistakes' that frankly, very few people would ever know. It certainly got by the folks at Bonhams if it turns out to be a fake.

Yes, it's very strange that someone would go to this level of restoration and falsify a BC and use an M-Code plate that didn't even exist on this year; in addition to all the other little things that are not correct.
My question and one posed to me today by Lew, is where else is the VIN stamped on a '59 Bus? The frame? Somewhere else on the body?
I couldn't answer that question and if it does exist elsewhere on the Bus, who's to say it hasn't also been modified?

Also, where would one start to remove things like the headliner to determine if a top clip had been installed? I have to say if it's a "tribute" it's the best one I've ever seen and that's coming from a 31 year ownership of a documented '67 21-Window and a VW enthusiast since 1966~

By the way, Lew told me today that he had lowered the asking price to $125,000 (still high, I told him) and changed the copy from a "documented original" to a "meticulously restored tribute" Bus, which I thought was the right thing to do. He went so far as to ask me what I thought the Bus might be worth if it indeed turns out to be a tribute and we spoke at the same time
$60-$70,000.

For that, I would have to think long and hard about NOT buying it and the thought of owning anything that wasn't real has never been an option for me...but it sure looks good and sits well~

Certainly, someone owes Lew an apology and a very big check.
He said he would stay in touch with me and I think he is genuinely concerned about how this plays out... I know I am.

Thanks to everyone who has weighed in; it's been an interesting thread.
Before I forget to ask. I would like to know who Brendan thinks built this Bus? Someone mentioned Octavio, but i don't know him.
Brendan commented that the person in question has built more than a few of these?

Stay well and safe, All ~
Best regards,
Jim Gray
Jim Gray Designs
jimgraydesigns.com

[BUCIOBATISTI]

Hi Jim, I think you've missed the bigger picture here.

The question of whether the Bus is a legitimate German 23 Window is far less significant than the FACT that the Bus has a fraudulent ID plate that is STAMPED OVER with the VIN of a LEGITIMATE and very well known 1958 Double Door Walkthru 23 Window that is in original Sealing Wax Red and Chestnut Brown paint, it belongs to our friend Bob over in Belgium, and Bob has loads of legitimate documentation as well as a genuine Birth Certificate from Volkswagen.

This is a case of an attempt of stealing the identity of a known legitimate Bus that exists in Belgium and utilizing the very same VIN number here in the USA where the government/motor vehicle department records would not show the "duplicate" of the fraudulent Bus.

This is VIN tampering, vehicle identity theft, and what I would call "six figure malicious fraud". These are federal offenses and whoever built it is a moron of an incalculable level.
_________________
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That's the best place to see the latest things we are up to as well as catch an occasional sneak peek of our latest car and parts listings!

[Rhodrich]

Not just that, but the reason that the original VIN was ground off in the first place could be that the whole vehicle itself is stolen.

[PeteSC]

[Lind]

[teahead]

The bus is worth ZERO dollars as it may be impounded any minute.

Maybe LESS than ZERO by lots if there are fines (or jail) associated with selling or possessing a vehicle with VIN issues. Especially knowing that it's a fake.


Sorry, but the bus needs to be parted out and crushed.
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'63 German Walk-Thru Deluxe 15-window - SOLD

[Erik G]

The ad has been pulled from both sites. That does take some time, typically the owner themselves are not savvy enough, they have to get their marketing dept to do it

If I was "Lew" I would lock that thing up and start calculating a storage / shipping bill. Bonham's is legit and will want nothing to do with this except make it right. I suspect they have a binding contract and will get their money back, "Lew" will get his money back and the bus will go to the authorities to figure it out. we may never know what happens (oh but I do hope to learn more)

[EverettB]

[jimgraydesigns]

Hello All ~

Thanks for the comments and perspectives... a few clarifications:

I have NO interest in buying this Bus; certainly not a tribute and not an example that has so many questionable issues. I am very happy with my '67 21-window.

I agree with all the comments regarding anyone who tampers with the identity of an item (car, watch, art, etc) and never intended to appear to defend such an act of illegal practice. I was only trying to convey my impression of Lew when I met him. I believe he was the victim in this case and not someone who was trying to add to the fraud. I would hate to be wrong about that~

At no point did he deny the possibility of the Bus being a fraud once the details were brought to light. In fact, he was full of questions. Remember, he is not a VW enthusiast (apart from that cool SP2 he has for sale) and seems to know very little about the brand beyond the obvious demand for these Buses.

As I said, I found him very concerned and forthcoming and he is well into an investigation with Bonhams. I understand the scenario presented if it were any of our legitimate vehicle identities being stolen, how we would feel.

Please, don't think for a minute, I was giving anyone responsible for this a 'pass'
I'm as concerned as you~

What I would like to know is WHO is responsible for this Bus?
Where has it been and who has owned it? Who is Gephart (?) the name on the Birth Certificate?

Everett mentioned that it was For Sale earlier this year on The Samba?
Has anyone reached out to them?
Were they the one who sold it through Bonhams?
Is it possible it started out as a real 23-window in '59 and didn't have any VIN or M-code plate when found? Possibly?

Again, I'm not suggesting this isn't a very serious offense... I'm only curious like the rest of you as to what really transpired here? Just so we're clear.

I thought the site was taken down this morning, but it is still up?
The Bus is still For Sale? That concerns me a bit. I have suggested to Lew that he take it down until Bonhams can unravel this mess... I can't speak for Lew, but I think he would like nothing more than to have his 100k refunded and get as far away from this situation as possible. he just doesn't strike me as someone who wants all this attention.

In fact, I think he likes a low profile.
I'm the same way about a lot of things...

I hope this clarifies things a bit?
Maybe my language in the previous post was too 'accepting' sounding?
I certainly didn't mean to come across that way.

Stay well and safe everyone~
Peace.
J~

[jimgraydesigns]

A quick update...
I texted Lew earlier and he responded that his email and phone have been "blowing up" today~
He assured me that Bonhams was working through it and as Everett pointed out, they are not at all interested in responding to any questions until they unravel this.

It may take a while to get the details out of Bonhams, but I think Lew will share them with whenever he finds out, if for no other reason than the fact that we've recently met and had a good chat...

Stay Tuned, All ~

[FarmerBill]

Man, this has been quite the Scooby-Doo mystery. Now all that's left is the unmasking of the villan who created this forgery. And he would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids.

[Lind]

Hopefully they are able to trace this all the way back to the people who constructed this fraud.

This will be painfully expensive for someone.
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Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
.

[Tizian]

Hi,

this is the outcome of the museum’s investigation:

The BC was originally issued by the musem and is valid. But they made a mistake with the build date. Of course it should read 1958.



"Hallo Herr XXX,

wir haben nun in unserer Datenbank und in der Wagenstammkartei recherchiert. Die Urkunde ist von uns im Oktober 2017 ausgestellt worden.

Sie haben aber recht: Beim Baudatum hat sich bei der Jahreszahl ein Fehler eingeschlichen. Der Wagen ist 1958 gebaut worden.

Alle weiteren Daten sind korrekt.

Beste Grüße

XXX
Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen
Dieselstraße 35
38446 Wolfsburg"

[teahead]

So I guess ANYONE w/a VIN number can order a BC. Doesn't need proof of ownership and/or other documentation to get one?

Kind of disturbing.
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'63 German Walk-Thru Deluxe 15-window - SOLD

[Busstom]

[Patiently Impatient]