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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: Engine tin piece |
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Putting the engine back together for my ‘73 wagon. I labeled this piece as “top of case” but can’t figure out where to mount it or what it is for. I took many pictures but just does not show. Stumped for now.
Bill
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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What is the large hole diameter? I can't find anything that looks exactly like it in the parts book...but it could be a bracket to hold the thermo-time switch.
Typically those have a large hole about 3/4" for the switch and a small hole to fit the 8mm case bolt under the plenum that it bolts to.
It looks familiar...but usually the thermotime switch bracket is kind of C shaped but they can vary depending on original engine model and which side of the engine your switch is mounted on.
Let me look around in my books. Ray |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Not the thermotime switch…that is already mounted on a much beefier bracket. The hole diameter ia 13mm for the large and 7mm for the small. The small hole fits either one of the studs on the case breather casting. I vaguely remember the large hole is maybe supposed to house a grommet. Maybe for the coil wire?
Bill |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Ah....couldn't tell the scale.
I have seen that just recently in one of my buckets of parts. Its a 7mm hole for a 6mm bolt. Not a coil wire bracket......but I am thinking it attached to sheet metal and was one of the vacuum line supports ....maybe over on the right side near all of the vacuum lines split between transmission and plenum......
Hmmm.mmmm
Ray |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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I think we’re getting close. It is a bracket for either a vacuum line or maybe with a rubber grommet to run some of the fuel injection electrical. It must be well hidden because I have dug up some engine bay photos from nice/newer 412’s and cannot see it.
Bill |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Ah Yes! Photos pay off! It is a bracket holder for one or two spark plug wires 1 and 2. This is the only angle that woul ever show it on the breather casting. This was a few months ago tearing my engine down. It is missing the cable holder that snaps in place.
Bill
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Pepperbilly wrote: |
Ah Yes! Photos pay off! It is a bracket holder for one or two spark plug wires 1 and 2. This is the only angle that woul ever show it on the breather casting. This was a few months ago tearing my engine down. It is missing the cable holder that snaps in place.
Bill
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Ah!...fantastic sleuth work! Yes...I have several and know where they are....or which bucket they are in.
They probably rarely get used once the plastic gripper piece gets removed. In fact...I would not even have been sure its for the spark plug wires without being told. I dont think I have ever seen a complete one....I have YET to find it in the parts book. I know it will show up in some odd pace in the parts book.
Ray |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Yeah, the crazy thing does not sport a part #. I do remember it well now when working on the car in the 70’s. I seem to recall that th plastic gripper was white and maybe held up to 3 wires. The grippers would eventually break and not a replacement to be found possibly because no part #. One would just forget about it and run wires past it. Something to add to 411/412 lore…lol!
Bill |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Pepperbilly wrote: |
Yeah, the crazy thing does not sport a part #. I do remember it well now when working on the car in the 70’s. I seem to recall that th plastic gripper was white and maybe held up to 3 wires. The grippers would eventually break and not a replacement to be found possibly because no part #. One would just forget about it and run wires past it. Something to add to 411/412 lore…lol!
Bill |
Well.....I would have had no idea it was a wire holder until you told me. Looking at this.....I also suspect it did not work that well as a wire holder.
So....we are all going off memory here! .....and I am not doibting your word and memory at all.....but I just have to ask....because I have no idea......are you sure its a spark plug wire holder?
I have NEVER seen one with wires in it. I have never even seen one in use doing whatever its supposed to do.....and it would be damn hard to see one in the open engine compartment of a two or four door coupe due to position.....and only marginally better in a wagon.
So thats right there behind the cold start valve plug and very close to where you need to work anytime you are messing with the small boot and hoses on the AAR.
I am betting that if you have to remove the CSV.....you have to remove that part first or its no go. Same issue I bet on work with the AAR boot.
Also.....we do have the other little plastic wire holders....I think one on each large sheet metal piece?.....dont quote me on that.....let me look them up......but where i am going with the comment.....is that the wires come up out of the cap.....and go upwards and across....then snake around....to get to #1 and 2. Thats fine.....they could snake over and hook to that part.....if they are long enough.
The point being in my mind.....is that a lot of wire sets for type 4.....are barely long enough to use the other clips on the sheet metal. And....every time you have to work with timing....the wires would have to come out of that clip. Everytime you have to remove the distributor cap.....those wires would have to come out of that clip.
So I qm NOT saying you are wrong about what that part is by any means!......just saying that it must have worked poorly...or got so overworked from in and out.....it probably just got,skipped after a,while.
Either way......now its on my "quest" list.....to find a part #, picture or picture in use
Ray |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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I dug up some photos of nice 412’s that were auctioned or sold in the past. Looked at ones that were pretty much in factory condition. #1 and 2 plug wires snake around right behind the breather on all of them… of course you can’t see the bracket because it is hidden. Now you mentioned wire length. Could be the factory sets were longer to begin with… that would explain the routing. You are correct that there are 2 other grippers on the large tins. I seem to remember one single and one double.
Bill |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Pepperbilly wrote: |
I dug up some photos of nice 412’s that were auctioned or sold in the past. Looked at ones that were pretty much in factory condition. #1 and 2 plug wires snake around right behind the breather on all of them… of course you can’t see the bracket because it is hidden. Now you mentioned wire length. Could be the factory sets were longer to begin with… that would explain the routing. You are correct that there are 2 other grippers on the large tins. I seem to remember one single and one double.
Bill |
I think you are correct about wire lengths. Here and there over the years I have gotten wire sets for type 4...correct wire sets....that I always seemed to think were too long.
But....a lot of cheap wire sets....were also OBVIOUSLY...type 1 sets that simply had the two longer type 4 plug connectors added...and fit like crap. Too short.
We have been getting screwed either way for decades! Ray |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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There are actually 3 wire gripper locations on the large tins. Two on the 3 and 4 side….one single and one double. The 1 and 2 tin has just one single. The breather gripper bracket in the middle has not been reinstalled yet in my photo. That one was at least a double if not a triple for the two plug wires plus another injection wire. These grippers were not loved because of their locations, especially the ones hidden by the intake runners. They were soon forgotten. I have marked the three gripper holes with white paper towels.
Bill
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 783 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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I have seen this bracket on a few engines, always thought it was a bit weak
Wondering if it was a way to try to keep the spark plug wires safely away from the 3-wire cable coming from the trigger switches in the bottom of the dizzy?
Somewhere (in factory litterature ? ) I have read instructions to separate these to avoid electrical interference.
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Hey Lars S,
Yes, you are on to something. In my way back memory there were a number of wires in that area. Could well be that the factory was trying to keep plug wires and injection wires away from each other. I am assuming that a “dizzy” is a distributor… is that a Swedish term?
Bill |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 783 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Pepperbilly wrote: |
Hey Lars S,
... I am assuming that a “dizzy” is a distributor… is that a Swedish term?
Bill |
Ha ha, no Bill I have picked that expression up from other US forums...and yes it means the distributor. _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Lars S,
Your english is wonderful! Were you born in Sweden? The “dizzy” term sure sounds like something out of England perhaps?
Bill |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 783 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Pepperbilly wrote: |
Lars S,
Your english is wonderful! Were you born in Sweden? The “dizzy” term sure sounds like something out of England perhaps?
Bill |
Ha ha again Bill, thanks but no Im born in Sweden but it feels like I have lived half of my life on US VW forums
PS
"Dizzy" is frequentey used among Porsche 914 US nerds
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Engine tin piece |
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Well, turns out I was confusing wire routing on different models. My ‘67 dual carb Type 3 Squareback has the multiple grippers for coil and plug wires… there are 3 grippers on mine. The 412 has the twin gripper by the breather hidden on the backside for the two plug wires only. My memory was half right though. Sorry I confused some people. The following photo from my Type 3 shows the 3 grippers.
Bill
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