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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3435
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| When do you plan to have more back in stock? Very good idea and thx. Dont let any negative comments bug you. Good stuff! |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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I assume you are also testing and comparing idle numbers?, what's great for the track may not be so good for sitting in traffic after a highway burn.
Not trying to be a wet blanket, just curious how it works and compares over the whole spectrum.
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Busstom
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 3834
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| andrig's wrote: |
| <snip> ...the stock Doghouse cooling system doesn't actually cool each side of the engine the same. The complexity of the position of the fan, being offset to the 1/2 cylinder side, and the air directional vanes inside the shroud do a fairly decent job, but you still get around 7% more cooling air to the 1/2 side of the engine than the 3/4 side of the engine. |
This reasons and makes complete sense. One side blasts air straight down on the head and cylinders. On the other side, the air has to fight big fat deflectors to do a complete u-turn, under which circumstances the air would certainly encounter at least some level of resistance.
For what it's worth, put me in the camp that has all the best hope that your design and efforts pan out and benefit the community. This thread will be 15 - 20 pages long before all the armchair design/engineering/manufacturing/testing/criticism is exhausted, and then only your final product will remain and prove itself out as to whether it meets the demands and longevity, or not. Ironically, we'd never know unless you put the product out there and let the masses test it.
Best of Luck! |
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67rustavenger 
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9749
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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I'm on the waiting list.
I like neat idea's. And this one looks promising.
So for the price and the light weight. How can a man go wrong?
Wish I would have kept an eye on Andrig's classifieds ads.
I wouldn't have missed out on being the first kid on the block with this new product!
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| andrig's wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| mark tucker wrote: |
| Im not impressed with his test jig, no restrictions to build pressure like real world full tined out engine. where/what rpm does the fan come appart at?hoiw many high rpm shift cycles has it had to test for slippage at the coupler. what rpm does it get cavitation? I could see this good on a bus if it does flow more with full tinware installed, and possiably cars /buggys too. if it truly does flow that much more air with all the tinware on the engine then a power pully should bring back hp and keep cooling as well. witch would also be great for bus applications as well as everything else. theroys and real world are not always the same thing. a lot of air can be pumped with no restrictions, but add the restrictions and you can get bleed by and loss of flow. real world test would be nice to see. not just a electroick spin up on a bench with no tin and no heads&cylinders& case & lower tin... just my thoughts. I truley hope this works. if it does I will get atleast 1. Ive seen to many "this is it" products that were in reality junk. and some of those were in production for decades... |
^^^^....its a big question in my mind as well.
One thing about this fan "TYPE"....they are very much less prone to cavitation because they have very little negative space on the back side of the blades. They are the closest to JUST centrifugal force and rotation speed to accelerate air.
Even though this fan appears to be a hybrid in design compared to an industrial version of a radial fan where the blades are the same size/height from center to side....the radial fan type needs high rpm and will create a LOT of static pressure. Without testing in an actual shroud.....this can be a problem.
And dont anyone get bent...this is a type 4 example (but type 1's have some of this issue too)  ....Years ago...Jake Raby found that one of the biggest problems with getting cooling air to make the 90* turns and go downward between cylinders in areas like back on the forward side of cylinder #3...was that the cooling air stacks up static pressure back in that low tin area. It causes a blockage to further air inlet...and causes turbulence that prevents the air from turning corners.
I found some of the same issues with my tools...but did not quite know why it was happening (just did not have enough knowledge at that point).
Have to test this in a real world shroud. Ray |
Just as an fyi, the video of my test rig was for the first phase of prototyping. Right after that, I built an upgraded test rig that has a complete mocked up engine with all tin, the deflectors in the cylinder heads, and even push rod tubes, plugs and plug wires.
Oh, including the thermostat flaps too.
All final product measurements were done on the upgraded test rig, and of course on my test engine, which is a 2324 cc (95mm x 82mm) engine with MS230 cylinder heads and CB Performance Gen 4 fuel injection.
This test engine produces somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-230 horsepower. |
Fantastic! Just so you know.....I am not speaking negatively about your product! I am glad you are doing full mock up testing with shrouds, sheet metal and vanes. It is what is necessary.
The price is fantastic for the amount of R&D that has to go into just an injection molded part....much less one that has to "perform".
My comments.....if this were left as a simple paddle bladed radial fan....I would suspect not enough R&D.....but the geometry you are using.....is NOT simple for a radial fan.
I am hoping you have great success! And.....let us know if you think about doing something engineered to work with type 4!
Ray |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3553
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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I honestly hope to have my engine installed and running in two weeks, 3 tops.
It’s hot as hell in Texas now, so I’ll report back
Fan will be here Monday. Thank you Andrig for your efforts |
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6977
Location: Durango, CO
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| andrig's wrote: |
Oh, there was one thing I forgot to say. Someone mentioned they hoped it was made in China.
No, it's not made in China.
Designed by myself, and I'm in Colorado, and it is injection molded outside of Detroit.
So, designed and manufactured right here in the US. |
Andrig's....a suggestion if you will permit me.....
I noted that you said you wanted to keep the material hidden. I would suggest that you NOT keep the material hidden.
I work with plastics of all types...from exotic to run of the mill. I also work with a range of injection molding, pressure molding and IML/IMD....so I have a pretty broad range. There are others in these forums with even more molding experience and equal plastic chemistry experience or better.
My point is that I...or any of the others who work with plastics and molding....can already tell you what plastic "family" was used if we held a part in our hand.
With a little more work we could tell what if any additive fillers/aggregates like glass fiber, nylon fiber, carbon, metals etc were added.......BUT....and this is the point I am making........
.....outside of what I just mentioned....virtually no one can tell (without serious lab work)....the actual plastic "alloy" or blend.
We also cannot tell how many tons the press was, what the shot time and volume was, what the barrel temp and pressure was, what the charge pressure was, what the mold release if any was that was used....or if there were any after molding heat or cold stress relief done.
So... knowing the basic "TYPE/FAMILY" of plastic does not mean that anyone could easily steal your product and produce it elsewhere.
Also since this product is not home use and has no electrical you do not have to label the molded parts with plastic type and additive content because there is no UL insulation requirement.
I say all of this....because a highly engineered part like this.....you should state the basic plastic family. Think of it a a badge of quality.
Likewise...one would not buy a highly engineered, high level part like a crankshaft, rods or rod bolts....without knowing SOMETHING about the alloy.
Just a suggestion!  Ray |
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FarmerBill
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017
Posts: 766
Location: New England
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
I say all of this....because a highly engineered part like this.....you should state the basic plastic family. Think of it a a badge of quality.
Likewise...one would not buy a highly engineered, high level part like a crankshaft, rods or rod bolts....without knowing SOMETHING about the alloy.
Just a suggestion! Ray |
X2 |
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Lo Cash John
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004
Posts: 2246
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| andrig's wrote: |
Oh, there was one thing I forgot to say. Someone mentioned they hoped it was made in China.
No, it's not made in China.
Designed by myself, and I'm in Colorado, and it is injection molded outside of Detroit.
So, designed and manufactured right here in the US. |
NICE!!
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:00 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| andrig s as you can see by reading my fourm on your fan. that raygreenwood has posted 9 times . his last post tells you what kind of person he realy is . do not trust him . he wants to much of your info on how you made your fan . and what its made of . and he in his own way is trying to put your fan down by saying he would never buy any part that he does not know what its made of . ray does not under stand that no one gives out there trade secrets. look what EMPI has done over the years EMPI knocks off every ones VW parts . spencerfvee |
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jpaull
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Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3459
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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You mean Ray might Argue about plastic? No way! So there is a posibility that Ray might give a 9 paragraph essay creating doubt or giving the history of why something is wrong? Or he might fillibuster a thread that leaves the thread without replies because he is taking up the bandwidth?
Even if he agrees, he will say "NO" first, just so he can come full circle in a long post so he can expand on his vast knowledge, and show that he dis-agreed first even if he might agree. But by that time, readers eyes glazed over, their head smacked down on their keyboard snoring and forgot about the whole thing.
Yes, pretty high probability |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| jpaull wrote: |
You mean Ray might Argue about plastic? No way! So there is a posibility that Ray might give a 9 paragraph essay creating doubt or giving the history of why something is wrong? Or he might fillibuster a thread that leaves the thread without replies because he is taking up the bandwidth?
Even if he agrees, he will say "NO" first, just so he can come full circle in a long post so he can expand on his vast knowledge, and show that he dis-agreed first even if he might agree. But by that time, readers eyes glazed over, their head smacked down on their keyboard snoring and forgot about the whole thing.
Yes, pretty high probability |
I’m going to go out on a limb, and say the place MANUFACTURING the part has covered what material will work the best for the application.
I’m planning on getting one to see what it’s all about.  |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
| andrig s as you can see by reading my fourm on your fan. that raygreenwood has posted 9 times . his last post tells you what kind of person he realy is . do not trust him . he wants to much of your info on how you made your fan . and what its made of . and he in his own way is trying to put your fan down by saying he would never buy any part that he does not know what its made of . ray does not under stand that no one gives out there trade secrets. look what EMPI has done over the years EMPI knocks off every ones VW parts . spencerfvee |
To Emeraldlion:
I deleted my comment....to not trash up this excellent thread.....because hopefully this product will be successful.
Bear in mind.....it's perfectly fine to dislike someone for "almost" any reason. Free country....for the moment.
You can call someone a liar if you think they are bullshotting you or just being a keyboard jockey. Its just the internet.
But you might refrain from accusing someone .....in public......of PROFESSIONAL IMPROPRIETY or INTELLECTUAL THEFT......especially if they make their living within the manufacturing sector.
Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:32 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7207
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:07 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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Yeah, that was a little far out and a clear indication that the comments were not understood.
Either way, it will be VERY interesting to see how it performs IRL. A test rig is definitely the first step in developing anything. But the enviroment in a car or bus is significantly different.
I will admit that I am in the "hmmmm!" group since everytime someone has come up with a new solution it has turned out to be nothing but hot air, - litterally. An approach with this type of fan I have never seen, and maybe, just maybe that is the way to crack the code. We´ll see.
Even if it "only" equals the stock wide fan there is still the weight reduction which is not without interest.
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Last edited by Alstrup on Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Emeraldlion
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Joined: April 13, 2005
Posts: 743
Location: Texarkana, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:11 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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Oy. Ray man, you are going to have to chill. That was probably just as uncalled for as Spencer's post. If everything is truly unfounded, which based on posts from you in my opinion it is, then blow it off. I have learned a lot from info you have posted, this is true. I will say that a lot of the info you post could be considered completely unsolicited. With that in mind there may be people that perceive that as you being a blow hard or windbag. If you are truly out to share and educate them blow it off, ignore the haters and keep on keeping on. Let's not make this thread on Andrig's fan get locked because someone decided to throw out some wild haired post.
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Bad bug
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2006
Posts: 1126
Location: Jamaica
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| txoval wrote: |
| I ordered one, will report back. |
Will you be using sensors to gather data on your engine with this fan. |
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Bad bug
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2006
Posts: 1126
Location: Jamaica
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:22 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| Ohio Tom wrote: |
I think that style fan needs to be in a volute ( Snail) in order to be efficient.
Fans have a certain static pressure and air flow curve.
It MUST be designed with those 2 things in mind. And it must work within it's curve under all conditions.
Some pretty heavy engineering and testing must be done to make a design, test it, and discover the curve.
Small changes to the impeller design have a profound impact on the curve as well.
In Chilled water systems, we spend alot of time sizing pumps and trimming impellers to put them in the correct place on the curve. |
You are onto something here your thinking is inline with what i was thinking. |
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andrig's
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:23 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| When do you plan to have more back in stock? Very good idea and thx. Dont let any negative comments bug you. Good stuff! |
I'm waiting for a confirmation date from my injection molding provider. I placed the order on Thursday. |
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andrig's
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 67
Location: Louisville, CO
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:28 am Post subject: Re: new bigger type 1 fan that pushes more air cast as one peace |
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| richparker wrote: |
| Is the fan compatible with a velocity ring? |
Yes, the fan is compatible with a velocity ring. I have a velocity ring on my test engine.
Definitely wanted to make sure there wasn't an issue for that use case. |
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