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Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue - SOLVED
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teej
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue - SOLVED Reply with quote

Hi everyone
In the middle of nw Montana road trip. After a stop at Ranger station in Kalispell we have a no start. Starter doing nothing. Tested w MM at starter measured 12.7V. Removed and put back hot lead on starter solenoid in case that was not making good contact. Can hear fuel pump prime.
Plugged in spare ignition switch turned w screwdriver no difference. Manual trans.
What next to try?
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Last edited by teej on Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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16CVs Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

Do you know how to bump start a car?

Stacy
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teej
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

I have read about it but never done it. I did try putting in gear and rocking it.
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teej
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

I just tried disconnecting red lead on solenoid and metering it while partner turned ig switch to start. No voltage. Shouldnt this wire be hot when key is turned to start?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

Search YouTube “how to bumpstart.”
You need a manual trans to do this and you need a hill, to get the van rolling.
Or people to push it.
Be careful if its a Syncro (don’t bump it in granny or reverse).

I think theres a Samba member in Kalispell, he is generally very helpful but I can’t remember his name.
Maybe someone can remember and post it.
I think hes a professional mechanic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

If you have 2 people or a hill, put the Transmission in 2nd gear and make sure the E brake is off and the Ignition switch in the run or on position.

Start the car rolling just a little bit faster then you can push it and release the clutch pedal, it’ll shudder a little give it some gas and in you go. Sometimes after it cools down it may start a few times. Plan your exits when you park and go on with your trip.

These are the things that make a trip memorable. As long as your van is in good tune, it should pop right over. It doing the same thing the starter motor does.

Stacy
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

if these folk can do it I'm sure you can Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:


I think theres a Samba member in Kalispell, he is generally very helpful but I can’t remember his name.
Maybe someone can remember and post it.
I think hes a professional mechanic.


kalispell365
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

Thanks so far. Can anyone confirm if the lead on the 1/4spade tab on solenoid should have voltage when switch is turned to start? It is not. Can the starter be “jumped” right at the starter by bridging from main connection with 12.7v to that tab? Safety: in nuetral, e brake set.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

Hey folks I just got it started. I tried the Fonzi method of hitting the starter 4-5 times with a mini sledge. I have never actually tried that before. Anyway next attempt it turned over. It has also been cooling down for a couple hours while we worked on it. Is this a common starter failure mode—no start hot? And what does hitting do?
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mikemtnbike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

Hot start issues are a thing, do a title only search on it. Several possible causes.

Fonzi method interesting terminology it knocks a solenoid that is frozen back into working (kind of, very basic terminology).

Learn to bump start. Watch Little Miss Sunshine, that's a good example.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

It will make it non returnable and non functional when you crack the magnet. It free the armature up from the stuck point in the bushing. It will only work so many times, it’s time to start learning to bump start.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

16CVs wrote:
It will make it non returnable and non functional when you crack the magnet. It free the armature up from the stuck point in the bushing. It will only work so many times, it’s time to start learning to bump start.


the original Bosch starter has field coils to generate magnetism, not permanent magnets like the TDi starters. they are quite robust. usually, the whack, which i've had to do and in fact kept a hammer in the van specifically for this, works because the armature brushes are hanging up in their holder, either from being too short or too much schmoo in the holder.

i upgraded to the TDi starter with the needed adapter plate and no longer carry a hammer. bu it is a permanent magnet motor and i wouldn't whack it <grin>.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

All the Vanagon starters I have seen, cleaned off anyway, have a sticker that says "Do NOT hit with hammer"

On the other hand, it was something I did regularly on my Splits and Bays.

I had come to understand that the brushes were just worn out and no longer conducting electricity through the starter.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

For a while, with my old Renault 4 back in the day, had the same problem. I just parked on sloped streets, and bumpstarted going downhill. Fun!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

these 35+ year old vans teach so many lost arts they could be a class at Hogwarts. bumpstarting and back when 'getting a tow' meant being dragged around the yard with the clutch out to start a reluctant engine.

ayup. if you stick with a Vanagon long enough, you're gonna need a wand.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

If you are not getting any voltage on the starter end of the #50 wire when your turn the key to START yet the headlights will work when you have the switch in the ON/RUN position, then the ignition switch is the most like culprit. If you DO have power to the #50 when the switch is turned to start the problem is typically the grease in the starter solenoid getting old and gummy when hot. Removing the starter and disassembling the solenoid enough to lube its plunger way get you going again for many years. This is a very common problem with both WBXer and aircooled Vanagons and with aircooled Transporters.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

The inability to bump start is the No. 1 reason (of only 2) that I sometimes wish I didn’t have an automatic. But given our fondness of camping in isolated places, it’s a big one.

With the questionable quality of replacement parts, how should one decide whether to preemptively replace a starter that’s working fine - but AFAIK is 30 years old?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

SCM wrote:
The inability to bump start is the No. 1 reason (of only 2) that I sometimes wish I didn’t have an automatic. But given our fondness of camping in isolated places, it’s a big one.

With the questionable quality of replacement parts, how should one decide whether to preemptively replace a starter that’s working fine - but AFAIK is 30 years old?


You can pull it and disassemble it enough to see the brushes and the commutator. If the brushes are still sitting high in their holders it has life left as is, but if the commutator looks decent and the brushes are near their end, put new brushes in it (requires soldering) and grease the bushings and it should last for a long long time still.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell Reply with quote

the original Bosch starter is low performance but suitable for the long haul Armageddon crowd. everything availble, cheap, and do-able by the DIY'er. the TDi starter is reliable, available, and draws a tad less current on the battery while appearing to spin faster (it SOUNDS faster, haven't measured engine RPM).

i like my TDi starter upgrade. a lot. makes me smile every time i hit the key. there's reasons enough to stay stock too. different strokes.
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