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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue - SOLVED |
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Hi everyone
In the middle of nw Montana road trip. After a stop at Ranger station in Kalispell we have a no start. Starter doing nothing. Tested w MM at starter measured 12.7V. Removed and put back hot lead on starter solenoid in case that was not making good contact. Can hear fuel pump prime.
Plugged in spare ignition switch turned w screwdriver no difference. Manual trans.
What next to try? _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans
Last edited by teej on Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Do you know how to bump start a car?
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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I have read about it but never done it. I did try putting in gear and rocking it. _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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I just tried disconnecting red lead on solenoid and metering it while partner turned ig switch to start. No voltage. Shouldnt this wire be hot when key is turned to start? _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Search YouTube “how to bumpstart.”
You need a manual trans to do this and you need a hill, to get the van rolling.
Or people to push it.
Be careful if its a Syncro (don’t bump it in granny or reverse).
I think theres a Samba member in Kalispell, he is generally very helpful but I can’t remember his name.
Maybe someone can remember and post it.
I think hes a professional mechanic. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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If you have 2 people or a hill, put the Transmission in 2nd gear and make sure the E brake is off and the Ignition switch in the run or on position.
Start the car rolling just a little bit faster then you can push it and release the clutch pedal, it’ll shudder a little give it some gas and in you go. Sometimes after it cools down it may start a few times. Plan your exits when you park and go on with your trip.
These are the things that make a trip memorable. As long as your van is in good tune, it should pop right over. It doing the same thing the starter motor does.
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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if these folk can do it I'm sure you can
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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joetiger Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2005 Posts: 5068 Location: denver
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Sodo wrote: |
I think theres a Samba member in Kalispell, he is generally very helpful but I can’t remember his name.
Maybe someone can remember and post it.
I think hes a professional mechanic. |
kalispell365 _________________ Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Thanks so far. Can anyone confirm if the lead on the 1/4spade tab on solenoid should have voltage when switch is turned to start? It is not. Can the starter be “jumped” right at the starter by bridging from main connection with 12.7v to that tab? Safety: in nuetral, e brake set. _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Hey folks I just got it started. I tried the Fonzi method of hitting the starter 4-5 times with a mini sledge. I have never actually tried that before. Anyway next attempt it turned over. It has also been cooling down for a couple hours while we worked on it. Is this a common starter failure mode—no start hot? And what does hitting do? _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2780 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Hot start issues are a thing, do a title only search on it. Several possible causes.
Fonzi method interesting terminology it knocks a solenoid that is frozen back into working (kind of, very basic terminology).
Learn to bump start. Watch Little Miss Sunshine, that's a good example. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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It will make it non returnable and non functional when you crack the magnet. It free the armature up from the stuck point in the bushing. It will only work so many times, it’s time to start learning to bump start. _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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16CVs wrote: |
It will make it non returnable and non functional when you crack the magnet. It free the armature up from the stuck point in the bushing. It will only work so many times, it’s time to start learning to bump start. |
the original Bosch starter has field coils to generate magnetism, not permanent magnets like the TDi starters. they are quite robust. usually, the whack, which i've had to do and in fact kept a hammer in the van specifically for this, works because the armature brushes are hanging up in their holder, either from being too short or too much schmoo in the holder.
i upgraded to the TDi starter with the needed adapter plate and no longer carry a hammer. bu it is a permanent magnet motor and i wouldn't whack it <grin>. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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All the Vanagon starters I have seen, cleaned off anyway, have a sticker that says "Do NOT hit with hammer"
On the other hand, it was something I did regularly on my Splits and Bays.
I had come to understand that the brushes were just worn out and no longer conducting electricity through the starter. _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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VicVan Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2015 Posts: 1826 Location: Vancouver Island, BC
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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For a while, with my old Renault 4 back in the day, had the same problem. I just parked on sloped streets, and bumpstarted going downhill. Fun! _________________ '90 Little Blue Truck, 2WD auto, FAS GenV 2.0 NA (AVH) |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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these 35+ year old vans teach so many lost arts they could be a class at Hogwarts. bumpstarting and back when 'getting a tow' meant being dragged around the yard with the clutch out to start a reluctant engine.
ayup. if you stick with a Vanagon long enough, you're gonna need a wand. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50259
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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If you are not getting any voltage on the starter end of the #50 wire when your turn the key to START yet the headlights will work when you have the switch in the ON/RUN position, then the ignition switch is the most like culprit. If you DO have power to the #50 when the switch is turned to start the problem is typically the grease in the starter solenoid getting old and gummy when hot. Removing the starter and disassembling the solenoid enough to lube its plunger way get you going again for many years. This is a very common problem with both WBXer and aircooled Vanagons and with aircooled Transporters. |
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SCM Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 3102 Location: Bozeman MT
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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The inability to bump start is the No. 1 reason (of only 2) that I sometimes wish I didn’t have an automatic. But given our fondness of camping in isolated places, it’s a big one.
With the questionable quality of replacement parts, how should one decide whether to preemptively replace a starter that’s working fine - but AFAIK is 30 years old? _________________ '91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50259
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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SCM wrote: |
The inability to bump start is the No. 1 reason (of only 2) that I sometimes wish I didn’t have an automatic. But given our fondness of camping in isolated places, it’s a big one.
With the questionable quality of replacement parts, how should one decide whether to preemptively replace a starter that’s working fine - but AFAIK is 30 years old? |
You can pull it and disassemble it enough to see the brushes and the commutator. If the brushes are still sitting high in their holders it has life left as is, but if the commutator looks decent and the brushes are near their end, put new brushes in it (requires soldering) and grease the bushings and it should last for a long long time still. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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the original Bosch starter is low performance but suitable for the long haul Armageddon crowd. everything availble, cheap, and do-able by the DIY'er. the TDi starter is reliable, available, and draws a tad less current on the battery while appearing to spin faster (it SOUNDS faster, haven't measured engine RPM).
i like my TDi starter upgrade. a lot. makes me smile every time i hit the key. there's reasons enough to stay stock too. different strokes. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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