water / meth injection discussion...

[BFB]

i saw something brought up in another post and thought instead of highjacking it id start a new post.

those of you that run water injection, how many cc/ min do you run on what size engine with how much boost?

i built a water injection system last year but didnt get much time running that buggy. took it out the other day and it ran pretty good but i dont remember how many cc's i set it up to spray, and wondering how much is too much?
mines a drawthrough 45 dcoe, 2276, 8:1 cr and 15lbs of boost, on 93 octane most of the time. our average summer temps here are between 90 and 100F so it can get difficult to keep temps down.
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Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.  
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1

[Ohio Tom]

Hmm. I will have to look up my model.

The systems I have are calibrated based on HP level. They figure out the rest.

I will say this: if you inject too much, it will put the flame out and stutter.
It can also close up spark plug gaps when over-dosed.

That's been my experience.

[BFB]

i had the recommended cc's/ min from one of or a couple of the water meth injection manufacturers and id set mine up accordingly but i dont remember and would have to look up my files again too.
kinda surprised no one else chimed in, ive seen several that water..
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.  
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1

[buguy]

I believe Clone said there is a calculator on the Devil's Own website.

[clonebug]

I've been running Water/Alcohol Injection since 2013. In that time I've driven over 40,000 miles and have done a couple iterations of my setup.

I've used a single 2.0 gph nozzle set at 6.0 lbs without intercooler and while it worked good it did have issues when on long distance drives and climbing 6% grades at 65-70 mph. With the turbo I was running I had insta-boost at anything over 60 mph and the W/I would kick on at lighter loads like passing on the above mentioned grade and just barely kicking on the water. That would cause it to blubber since the 2.0 gph was for full throttle hp settings not climbing grades at light boost.
I fixed that by going to a two nozzle setup along with two Hobbes switches and two solenoids. I now use a 1.0 gph nozzle at 6.0 lbs and a 2.0 gph nozzle at 9.0 lbs for a combined flow of 3.0 gph at anything over 9.0 lbs. Granted I am now hitting 23-26 lbs of boost so the 3.0 gph is set for max power. I also swapped to a slightly bigger turbo which fixed some of the insta-boost issues.

I also added a small Audo V6 TT intercooler in 2017 which drops my IAT's another 30-50 *F. for ambient IAT's at 23 lbs boost.

I've tried two different pumps...a standard 8500 series rv pump and a Devil's Own 300 psi pump and really haven't noticed much diference except it cost me more money.

A lot of so called "must have" upgrades cost more money than the performance they give.

All the above have ranged from 13 -26 lbs of boost...working my way up the kpa scale as I better controlled my IAT's.
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[oprn]

I don't know if this is a valid idea or not but what about using a pressurized bottle for the water injection? The pressure would come from the intake manifold and the water would be injected in the inlet side of the turbo. The advantage would be that the higher the boost pressure the more water is injected. Self regulated.

There are a couple possible down sides. Maybe at low boost pressures the atomization would not be ideal. The other is to achieve a balance between reserve water volume and response time especially as the bottle gets close to empty. I expect there is some lag time with a pump too.

Just some idle thoughts, I like simple.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Wreck]

[clonebug]

When using Water Injection for a boosted application you want to make sure you have a positive flow setup that is fail safe. At anything over 8 lbs. boost the W/I is essential for protecting the engine and any chance of it failing or not flowing enough is detrimental to the complete system.

W/I in itself is not a solution...you need quality ignition control to retard the timing....especially after 6.0 lbs boost.
Injecting Water in a N/A application has nothing to do with boosted systems. For that matter there is opinion that is is a waste of time and money....in which I tend to agree.

Any system that does not have a positive pressure differential of at least 50 lbs. over the boost level will not give a misting pattern to help cool the intake air.
The smaller the droplets the more cooling effect they have.

My setup has been consistently removing 100 plus degrees of intake temp for many years. The intercooler is just a bonus even though it does not have optimum air flow. It still removes 30-50 degrees of intake temp the way it sits.
The fan is controlled by the ECU and kicks on as soon as it sees boost or it sees over 100 degrees of intake temp.

Here is a calculator for boosted intake temps....go ahead and do the math.

https://rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

Fill in the blanks and use 0 for intercooler efficiency to see what boost temp you get for a specified lb.
For ex...... 23.0 lbs boost at 90 degree ambient at 0% efficiency gives me a boosted temp of almost 260 degrees after the turbo.
With my W/I and intercooler I log a boosted intake temp of 90 degrees or less in spring, fall and winter. That puts me at over 160 degrees of intake cooling with my dual nozzle system and small intercooler.

Add the octane boost of the alcohol and extra fuel and it shows it's a win/win setup.
The one drawback is if it doesn't work exactly right it can and will damage your engine.
Don't run out of water....make sure your wiring is correct....don't hook your hoses up backwards.........

I have a Craftsman lawnmower tank for my mix....it holds about one gallon of Water/Alcohol. I can drive over 700 miles locally on one tank of mix. Actually that is not true.....I have over 1000 miles on my engine for the season and still have almost a half tank of Water/Alcohol left. So it depends on your driving habits. Since I'm heading out to California in 11 days I have been driving pretty conservatively and therefore not using a lot of water. In normal driving I can stay below 6.0 lbs boost and still have plenty of power to drive comfortably.

It is wise to have a failsafe to limit boost to a level where you don't need W/I.
I have a switch that cuts off my Electronic Boost Controller and limits boost to stock wastegate of 6.0 lbs and I have a second switch that will cut off my W/I if need be.
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[oprn]

Water injection on an N/A engine does make a difference if you talk to the old farmers. It's the same thing as the performance difference you feel on your car on a cool rainy day or at night compared to in the heat of the day. I have felt that difference many times.

Yes the finer the mist the better it works but remember that a good portion of the benefit happens in the combustion chamber as the water converts to steam. That is where a lot of heat is soaked up and the combustion is slowed down. What happens in the intake is only part of the picture.

Wreck, I have given some thought to the Beetle washer bottle too but yes you need the added complication of a switch to trigger it and a valve to shut it off and on. If it could be referenced directly to manifold pressure as I suggested then as I said before it would self regulate. Less parts = less failure in my mind. No pumps, no switches, no solenoids.

I get that higher pressures make a finer mist but remember the old tractors of yore just piddled it in by gravity and it worked for them. Maybe just not quite as good as it could have...
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[oprn]

I am not criticizing what you have done Clonebug, just kicking the cat up a different alley to see what comes out...
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Wreck]

Clonebug wrote
"Injecting Water in a N/A application has nothing to do with boosted systems. For that matter there is opinion that is is a waste of time and money....in which I tend to agree."


It all depends what you are trying to achieve .
I've got a simple set up on a 2.3 NA engine in a heavy Baja bus . I was having issues controlling CHT's at full throttle up longs hills in summer, +30C temps . particularly if pushing a head wind at highway speeds about 3200rpm . or long stretches of soft sand when on the beach .

CHT's would start heading north of 190C and I'd have to back off . I fitted the smallest nozzles Aquamist make , a 12V RV water pump( 80psi ). A 4mm festo ball valve that is coupled to my throttle cross bar linkage and a needle valve to control volume , controlled by a simple toggle switch on the dash .

I can now drive at full throttle as long as I like and the CHT's never raise above 175C . that is just using water . No power boost that I can feel .

Engine 2 I have has modified 48DRLA's that I'm trying to get every last CFM out of , 42mm venturi's no secondary venturi . It has a lean transition from idle to main . I use the megajolt to switch on the WM to cover that hole , using 50% water 50% denatured alcohol . It works . again the same small nozzles and a small RV pump . would I bother if I had bigger carbs with a better ratio of venturi to throttle plate or EFI , probably not .

[Alstrup]

[clonebug]

[Ohio Tom]

For mentioned reasons is why I bought the complete system.

The controller makes it easy to setup.

Wiring is simple.
No experimentation.
Any alarms in the system give you an output that you can tie to whatever.

Display also flashes if an alarm is detected.

Safe and reliable.


I have seen applications where the use it for N/A motors.
Road racing applications to help keep the combustion temps down.
Not much to be gained, but acts as an octane booster.

[oprn]

[Ohio Tom]

[oprn]

Sweet Tom! I thought they were all just one shot systems. It would be interesting to see how they vary the pump displacement!
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[madmike]

Hey Oprn,do ya see that lil' black box ? that's how it controlled
I just killed my O2 sensor having it spay to soon

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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"

[Ohio Tom]

instructions for the Snow Performance kit.

Worth a read. Page 7 has the hookup diagram.
https://www.nitrousexpress.com/images/Sno201.pdf

[madmike]

I have the older 2 stage system,,
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"