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Starting issue (sometimes...)
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waller
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Hi all

I have a new issue that started a few weeks ago: sometimes when I'd turn the key (both GEN/ OIL lights are on), the engine didn't do anything for the first 1-2 times. Then it would turn over and start up. This would happen 1 out of 10 times.

Yesterday I drove for 10 minutes, parked and when I went back the engine was turning over, but wouldn't engage. I tried for about 10 minutes and didn't want to drain my battery so I walked home, came back 3hrs later and it started on the first try.

This morning it's turning over again, but not engaging.

Notes:
1/ its poured rain here for 2 days straight- could that be a factor?
2/ I had a new alternator installed last month and it's been running perfectly since until yesterday.
3/ once the car is started, it runs perfectly fine.
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mjtracy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Sounds like you ignition switch is going out.
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waller
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

I think you're right.

I've been doing some research on it, doesn't seem like a huge job (78 Beetle) but is there something to check first on connections before I pull apart the steering column?
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waller
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Also, there seems to be two options for 74-79 Beetles: a 4 prong ignition switch and a 6 prong?

How do I know which to order?
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Michael Ambrozik
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Try taking a look at your switch to see how many lugs it has but it looks like a 6 lug should work.

https://www.jbugs.com/product/171905865.html
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Starbucket
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

When was the last time you cleaned your battery to ground cable and transmission to body cable? A quick test for ign. switch is run a jumper wire from battery Pos. to coil pos. and try to start it when the switch isn't working if it starts it's the switch (remove jumper to stop motor).
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waller
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Starbucket wrote:
A quick test for ign. switch is run a jumper wire from battery Pos. to coil pos. and try to start it when the switch isn't working if it starts it's the switch (remove jumper to stop motor).


I’ll try this test!

I just want to clarify though, one end of a red jumper to battery positive, the other end of red jumper to coil positive? Do I ground the other black jumper cables?

I have visions of the car exploding Laughing
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Starbucket
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

waller wrote:
Starbucket wrote:
A quick test for ign. switch is run a jumper wire from battery Pos. to coil pos. and try to start it when the switch isn't working if it starts it's the switch (remove jumper to stop motor).


I’ll try this test!

I just want to clarify though, one end of a red jumper to battery positive, the other end of red jumper to coil positive? Do I ground the other black jumper cables?

I have visions of the car exploding Laughing



Just one wire like a #14 with allagator clips. It's like turning on the ign. and then you start it with key switch.
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waller
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Well, no go on the battery + to coil +. Just so I know I did it right, with this connection the dash lights come on without a key in the ignition? When I turn the key, it tries to turn over but doesn’t engage.

I was sure it was the ignition switch. No I’m not sure what it is?

Any ideas?
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sb001
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Is the same 78 that is in your photo gallery? Fuel injected?
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OTTO 1303
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

When you say "turns over, but doesn't engage", what exactly does this mean?

Does the starter turn the engine over, but does not start, like a no spark condition?

Or, does the starter solenoid click, but does not cause the starter to turn?

Or, starter is turning, but starter gear is not engaging flywheel?

A little more clarity will help pinpoint the issue

Thanks
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waller
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:
Is the same 78 that is in your photo gallery? Fuel injected?


Yep, fuel injected!

OTTO 1303 wrote:
When you say "turns over, but doesn't engage", what exactly does this mean?

Does the starter turn the engine over, but does not start, like a no spark condition?

Or, does the starter solenoid click, but does not cause the starter to turn?

Or, starter is turning, but starter gear is not engaging flywheel?



I'm no pro for sure, but when I turn the key to the first position, I get the OIL/ GEN/ EGR lights on. Headlights work, radio turns on. When I turn to the start position, I hear the click and the engine is attempting to start. Yesterday there was even a point when it wouldn't start, I turned it off and the starter was still going for a few seconds.

It's exactly what you'd experience if the battery was low- except that in this case the battery is full.

It's not out of fuel, I have ample.

It's the ignition switch based on the test I did.

Worth noting:

This car was rarely driven over the past 10 years and we've been driving it daily. In the past two weeks, periodically there was a hesitation when I would turn to the start position before the engine would start (about a second).

I'm wondering if it has to do with the key column/ ignition switch (original keys) being used so much or that the starter needs a good whack.

I was planning to take the steering column apart today to check on loose connections as well.

Hope that helps? Thanks so much for your help!
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unclewede
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Some days I wonder WHY I wander in here, because I find the same issue I'm experiencing.

Sunday my son moved the 77 down the driveway so we could dine in the carport/gazebo. After dining, time to move it back, and nothing but gen lights. No click at all. So we pushed it back.
Monday afternoon, fired right up on first try. Tuesday, drove it to work, around town during work, and home. Not an issue with starting.

THEN I come here, and now I'm thinking about getting a new ignition switch Rolling Eyes
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Grab your voltmeter and test the terminals of the ignition switch plug on the underside of the steering column. The ignition switch is the black plug in the upper right corner of this pic...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There are three wires you are interested in:
    red (#30) = (INPUT) constant 12v from battery
    black (#15) = (OUTPUT) ignition switched circuit that powers the ignition coil
    red/black (#50) = (OUTPUT) starter solenoid circuit that powers the starter

With the key in the OFF position, test the voltage on the red plug wire. It should be very close to the voltage at the battery. If it is much lower than 12.0v make sure the battery is charged. If there is significant voltage loss between the battery and this plug... you need to clean up the wire connections to reduce resistance. Ideally, the voltage here should be within 0.1v of the battery terminals.

Turn the key to the first ON/RUN position. The black wire in the plug should now have power. It should read the same voltage as the red wire. If the voltage reading is much different you may have high internal resistance in the ignition switch.

Turn the key to the START position. Test the voltage at the black wire and also the red/black wire with the key in this position. Both should have voltage. The black wire voltage may have dropped a bit as the starter cranks the engine, but it should not drop below 10.0v. Actually you want at least 10.0v at the ignition coil. If the voltage at the coil drops below 10.0v the coil may stop firing.
Test the START position a few times. When the starter does not crank the engine, what is the voltage on the red/black wire? When the engine cranks but the engine does not catch, what is the voltage on the black wire? Both wires should have close to 12.0v with the key in the START position. Low voltage or intermittent voltage on the OUTPUT wires while the INPUT voltage is high indicate a problem with the ignition switch internal contacts. Replace or rebuild the ignition switch to improve the current flow thru the contacts.


If the voltage readings here at the ignition switch are good, move to the next point downstream to repeat the test. The black #15 wire should be tested at the ignition coil #15 (+) terminal. Test with the key both in the ON/RUN position and the START position. If the voltage reading at the ignition coil is much lower than the ignition switch end then you have resistance in the wiring between the ignition switch and the ignition coil. The black wire runs from the ignition switch plug to the fuse box before continuing on to the ignition coil. Cleaning up these wire connections can improve the voltage making it to the coil.
The #50 red/black wire has a junction below the left rear seat. It is the red wire that exits alongside the center tunnel near the brake line. Often the red wire is covered by a black or grey sleeve. Look for a two-wire junction below the rear seat. Test the voltage at this junction when the key is in the START position. Low voltage here will result in the starter solenoid clicking instead of cranking the engine.
Compare the voltage readings between the ignition switch and these junctions. If there is a significant voltage drop you have high resistance in the wiring. Take a wire brush to all connections.
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
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Starbucket
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

The motor/trans. assy is insulated from the car body by rubber mounts so if the trans to body strap is corroded you won't be getting the amps you need to start the motor.
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waller
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Ashman- thank you so much for this, I think my problem is an electrical connection somewhere.

Starbucket- thank you as well for sticking with me on this. I have tried to find the tranny strap, even looked at prior posts to see where it is, and I can't find it anywhere. I must be looking in the wrong place.

What's the best place to get under the car to see the transmission strap? I'm right in front of the rear wheel on the drivers side under the car (well, not right now, but you get the point... Laughing )
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Transmission ground strap is located at the front end of the transmission.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If your ground strap is very long make sure it does not hang down where it could get snagged.
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waller
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Thanks for that, it's much shorter than I thought. What's the best place to get under the car to find it?
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

waller wrote:
Thanks for that, it's much shorter than I thought. What's the best place to get under the car to find it?

Take a peek under the car just in front of the rear wheels. You will see the large round torsion tube that spans the width of the pan. At the outer ends of the torsion tubes you will see trapezoid shaped covers under the fender wells.

The front of the transmission mounts to the center of the torsion tube. Jack up the car from the jack point ahead of the rear fender. Place a jack stand under the torsion tube. Crawl under and you should see a flat ground strap connecting the transmission to the mounting plate at the center of the torsion tube.
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sb001
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue (sometimes...) Reply with quote

Based on my actual experience with this same issue, I'm going to guess the starter solenoid is going bad. I installed a reman Duralast starter on my 69 when my OEM Bosch went, worked great for a couple years then SLLOOWWWLLY started having the EXACT same symptoms you are describing- sometimes fired right up, sometimes hesitated a second or two then started, sometimes just a click. Here's my rant about it

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

When it first started happening, I could go under the rear seat and connect the + battery lead straight to the starter wire which would jolt the starter into spinning, then I could put everything back together and turn the key and the engine would start up. But eventually it got to the point where even if I did that trick it still wouldn't start when I turned the key.
No problems as of yet with the replacement Duralast (lifetime warranty so why not) that I installed a few months ago but I expect it will happen again. Anyway may or may not be related to your issue at all, just a thought I'd throw out there
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