3D printing....do we not have hands any more ??

[Crankey]

Few years back I started following a 3d print group on fb and was a bit surprised that most of what people printed looked like stuff accumulating in the average kitchen junk drawer.

Last night I watched a guy on utube showing how he 3d printed and then cast a brass pull ring for a boat hatch. Basic brass circle with a hing tab. A person could cut it from 1/4" plate in 1/2 an hr easily....layout, hole saw the center hole, band saw (even just a porta band) the perimeter and then some folding and grinding...no problem.

Then just reading a thread about glove box repair part that is really just a cord with a knob on both ends that functionally can be replaced with a small piece of nylon cord with a knot tied to both ends...but a suggestion was to 3d print a replacement.

The brass pull ring story was...model it in 3d, print it, invest it in plaster and burn it out then cast it in brass...then clean up the casting with files etc.
At a cost of about a grand with a craigslist printer and burnout kiln that was also used to melt the brass. The guy did 3 rounds of casting to get one part good enough to finish out.

I'm all for cool tech but geez this kind of thing just strikes me as crazy. I suppose it's still a good run through as a proof of process learning excersize but still, so would the the process be to make that ring by hand if your really not familiar with metal work. Seems to me actual hand work of metal is more useful skill.

When the zombie apocalypse happens I'd love to have a member of my wandering group to have skill to help set up solar charger for power tool batteries so my porta band and drills work...a welder would be nice too...but I'd expect 3d printing in the neo-dark ages would be a little out of reach unless you happened to find an abandoned prototyping business who also had a generator.

Maybe my perspective is skewed since I work with metal for a living...
But even my 30 year old co worker is intimidated by grinding the end of a cut bar square by hand as opposed to using a large disc grinder with a table and 90 degree fence.
I'm like...how are you going to know that 7" long fence is accurate to that 8 foot long tube ? Is the table dead level ?
Trust your hands and eyes, trust your Starrett square and scribe line !

We can 3d print metal now, but can you 3d print Damascus steel ? I don't think so. It may be layered metal but it's not Damascus imho.

[Cusser]

And some of us can fix a lawn tractor brake arm after a spindle breaks and its pulley cuts through, and ordering a new one will take a few days to arrive. I had a spare spindle.

Some of us can repair a work boot with a glue gun and an old golf club head cover.

Some of us can improve on a magnetic retriever.

Some of us can repair a dented truck bumper cap.

_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[oprn]

3D printing is a mystery to me at this point but I am fascinated by what some guys are doing with it. As for making the brass ring you mentioned...

Ya, I am an old hands on guy too and have used tools all my life. Welding, lathe work, I have even dabbled a wee bit in blacksmithing.

.... so 3D printing to make what he did... interesting round about way to accomplish something... but I would have to say - wrong tool for the job.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[windfish]

[djkeev]

3D has its place for sure.

With these old VW's there are many parts that have gone NLA, often stupid little plastic bits.
With 3D printing "we" can replace these parts without tooling up molds at great expense.

I've purchased several 3D items for my Vanagons, they perform as expected but look less than ideal.

There is real use of technology and then there is use of it simply for the heck of it.

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[ALLWAGONS]

We use 3D printing for special orders It is sourced out, but to say the least, the average joe 3d printing lacks detail and the ability to print quality smooth products. I have seen 3D printers in China that can print a 1 foot Eiffel Tower ( they did it just for kicks) in under a minute. The detail was so fine and the piece so exquisite, but this was catered to jewelry. Do I need one? NO!, Would I get one? No, Do I think they are cool? Heck YES!
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.

I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.

Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.

NON INFLUENCER APPROVED

[Chickensoup]

First off, 3d printers for the home gamer are relatively a new tech. They are absolutely priceless for mock up pieces.

Filament has come a long ways. My father is part of the AYCY group, and has tested dozens of gun in which are nearly entirely made from 3d printed plastic. It really is amazing.

aluminum and other soft metal printers WILL be found in house holds with maybe the next 5-10 years. which will step up the game big time.

you can make pattern for mold, which normally you'd have to hand form or cnc on a mall/lathe.


your high end 3d printer set up SHOULD NOT COST $1000. My giant Ender set up is under $400 right now. and prints at .1mm layer height.

The community is absolutely giant. the tech is developing very fast. new printer designs and filaments seem to come out daily. like the new conveyer belt bed system.

your hands are only so accurate. nearly every single physical product you buy today is designed in a cad/cam program. you can get crazy sophisticated with 3d printing. and then you have specialty filaments like TPU, the high heat compounds, plant based, polycarbonates, etc. and now aluminum of course.

and then you have resin printers which are amazing as well.

if your old, your probably not going to understand them or the software. thats just how it is with most technologies and the older generations.
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[Iowa Mark]

Yeah, and they will never have to buy a new typewriter now that the selectric is here, and transisters will replace everything in electronics from here on out, and that new fangled CNC machining will never replace a good machinist.
Like has been already said, 3-D printers are toys right now. The thing about toys are that kids find ways of stretching what can be done with those toys until......

[67ctbug]

[Abscate]

Unless professionally licensed, any job operating software isn’t a long term career path. 3D printing isn’t a career, it’s a resume bullet
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.ssS!

[v8nate]

Here's what I have made so far, granted I have no previous experience with this stuff, got a 3d printer for free from a friend, bought some filament (petg won't melt with gas) I needed an air cleaner on my fitech setup and with my trans raise a regular air cleaner wouldn't fit so I designed and made this(hope to use it with a turbo some day) the free software is pretty easy to use(fusion360) I also made a mic holder for my porta tool line bar

[LAGrunthaner]

Very cool v8nate, I use Autodesk Fusion360 in the classroom (beginning with covid teaching online) I like it more and more replacing Autodesk Inventor. I just received this info from Makerbot regarding PETG filament which we will test out this year. Any pro/con info to share when using this filament? Is it more difficult to remove supports/bridges and is it more brittle?

https://www.makerbot.com/stories/engineering/everything-you-need-to-know-about-petg-3d-printing/

[v8nate]

Thanks! The only thing I did was I downloaded some test blocks and lowered the printing temp down to 220c so it wasn't stringing all over the place(even though it calls for 240-260c if I remember correctly) I wouldn't say it's more brittle and the supports aren't overly difficult to remove but I will say removing all the supports on the inside of the carb hat was a bitch but I also have a center support for the air cleaner stud and I didn't want to snap it off while I removed the webbing. The main reason I chose petg was that it wouldn't melt with fuel. It's been on there for over 6 months and a few thousand miles and has held up great:)

[LAGrunthaner]

Cool thanks. BTW I'm using Gecko sheets for easy adhesion. They work great.

https://www.geckotek.co

[Abscate]

[LAGrunthaner]

Hahaha Abscate, you crack me up that you have all the money. Who is that quote you posted from?

Personally I think we can all learn from each other and hopefully do. I'm very grateful to still be teaching therefore keeping up with current technologies. I learn from my students everyday about something I'm not familiar with. In return besides teaching my curriculum I add older technologies in our shop to their lessons. I keep telling them "we also learn together". I make sure I tell my high school students I am never offended when they know something I don't and that I'm open to learning.

[Ian]

I love 3d printing. I mostly print gun parts but do other stuff for the VW's too. I made a steering column bushing for Super Beetle and early watercooled.

_________________
All your Buses are belong to us.
Love and good roads!
IN LOVING MEMORY OF ROB CRESS 1968-2012

[raygreenwood]

Just so you know where I am speaking from:
I work in the industrial printing industry. Its my entire business. I have at this point in time been into and work within about 4300 plants, shops and facilities over the past 34 years.

Thats screen print, Flexo, Pad print, offset litho, syringe dispensing etc, plating, etching, injection molding, pressure molding, die cutting, laser cutting cutting, folding, spindling, mutilating etc. .

My three main buckets are industrial from light to heavy (appliances, metals, glass, plastics, automotive, aerospace, tooling), PE- printed electronics from PCB's to flex/rigid flex circuit, solar cells, membrane switch, sensors etc. and medical device from hard parts to bio-sensors and electrodes and surface dermal devices..........all either created with printed parts, completed with printed parts or created completely by printing.

Yes....just starting to get into 3D printing....for specific reasons.

The largest part of what I deal with is screen printing. Over the past decade....every advance in 3D printing has seen a slew of producers and engineers approaching me in plants, online or at trade shows or symposiums....telling me that screen printed parts, appliances and circuitry will be totally eclipsed and obsoleted....by 3D printing....shortly

Each person showed me examples of parts printed and applications .....made by 3D printing (especially electronic circuits on polyester and Kapton and plastic parts made by 3D instead of molding).....and each time over a dedicated conversation.....I popped their bubble.

In all but a handful of cases...3D printing could not even come close to replacing screen printing for the vast majority of industrial, medial and electronic that its used for.....for these common reasons:

1. Electronics wise.....Deposition thickness versus speed....needed for medical device and electronic circuit with conductive or biological or chemically active inks.

In screen print I can print circuits in medium format (50" x 60") at a speed of upwards to 2500 sheets per hour. That could be one large circuit.....or a 10 or even 25 or 50 up pattern of multiple circuits.

I can print them with a nominal thickness of about 5 microns dry to 500 microns dry....of conductive ink. We can also do large format out to about 18 feet long and 6 feed wide (like Boeings flex circuit plant)

The 3D problem: throughput on thick ink film output ....is slow except on the very largest industrial machines using upwards to 135 inkjet nozzles (these machines start at about $1.5 million). It can do a 4' x 8' sheet.....1 up or multi-up...but takes quite a few minutes to get those 135 nozzles to make multiple passes to make the ink thick enough to carry current.

And....since inkjet sprays pulses in the picoliter size...and does not lay continuous film....the "electrons" see this pattern as resistance. Not as good and likely will not be in the next decade

2. For structures....3D printed parts.....the 3D printer is already there.....for molding prototypes and patterns. Just awesome ...and orders of magnitude cheaper and faster than creating them by hand in a machine shop. About 5-7 years ago.....these molding and short run prototypes....many of them still needed some machining and finishing to make them as accurate as they needed to be.

Not much anymore. They are much more accurate. Better printers...better nozzles...better software....better vision etc.

The main thing stopping 3D print from being a "production device"....was not just speed. The machines are cheaper now....so if the machine is 10X too slow...just buy 10 machines.

The big problem in the 3D prnter world was lack of material knowledge...and lack of filament material availability that make the finished part useful for wear, temperature etc.

In the past 3 years...the last 2 for sure....that problem is getting fixed. I am seeing sinterable metal filaments (stainless, bronze etc.). I am seeing plastic alloys...high temp nylons, glass filled PEEK and PPS, carbon filled plastics alloys etc.

These material changes alone are an order of magnitude game changer. I am watching now.

Ray

[Ian]

Here's a radio bezel for padded dash Type 1 I designed and printed in Hatchbox PLA. I use FreeCAD and Cura.

Check out Fosscad on Reddit if you get bored.
_________________
All your Buses are belong to us.
Love and good roads!
IN LOVING MEMORY OF ROB CRESS 1968-2012