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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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So let me get this straight, this is a Syncro Camper with a Subie 2.2 engine swap and by looking at the pics is in decent shape. Hmm, maybe one of 2000 Syncro Westy imported to the USA and its not worth $15k?
Buy it.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
| eamanb wrote: |
The current owner is motivated to sell but he has had many memories in the van and mentions it would get harder and harder for him to sell it if the van becomes driveable and operational hence why his hesitation to let me fix it, drive it and then offer him something.
With that said, he shared this last video wherein he mentions something about the "rear diff lock" not working and that it's a 65 dollar part. I'm not familiar with Syncros so is this truly a 65 dollar part to replace or is this a red herring?
I appreciate all your input so far. THe forum has been an invaluable resource. Please have a look at this last video and share your thoughts:
https://youtu.be/gis-HtNROk0 |
Concerning the rear locker. The locker operates on a vacuum system that sucks a pin into and out of the rear differential, the $65 part he's referring to is the vacuum actuator, but usually what happens is the pin gets stuck from non-use and is indeed a bit of a pain to free up. This is because of the tight working space around the actuator and the location of the pin. Another reason the rear locker fails is loss of vacuum from old rubber joints somewhere along the piping. This is easily repaired.
However the actuator could indeed be broken, it's made of plastic and sometimes the nipple that the vacuum hose attaches gets busted off.
The rear locker is not needed to drive the van, and on some basic models was not even mounted. It is a valuable addition to the Syncro and is worth fixing at some point. The locker option allows you to "lock" both rear wheels together for better traction in loose conditions like snow or sand.
The other two blank spaces on the diff lock panel are for a front diff lock (never offered as an option to North America) expensive to source and not often needed. And a decoupler, which as the name implies, simply disengages the Syncro system keeping the vehicle in 2wd mode. The decoupler is nice to have but views on it's effectiveness and use have changed. VW never offered the decoupler as a factory option, but the engineers included it in the design and the factory did wire the van for easy installation. Because of this many believe it's good to have, some claiming an increase in gas milage thinking it reduces added drag on the drivetrain from the front wheels (not proven out by real world averages) and others believing it's better to leave the Syncro system always engaged to spread the strain on the transmission over entire drivetrain.
I have one and use to reduce strain when making tight turns in parking lots on hot dry pavement. Otherwise I leave the Syncro system engaged for better overall road manners and safety.
The Syncro part of the system (and what makes it a AWD vehicle) is the connection between the driveshaft from the rear transaxle to the front differential. It is a fairly small device called a VC (viscus coupling) which is a case enclosing a closely spaced series of alternating disks (half connected to the driveshaft and half to the front diff shaft) at the rear of the front diff. The VC is filled with a special silicon fluid that reacts very quickly to any difference in rotational speed between the two sets of disks. So when the rear wheels start to slip the fluid "locks up" and engages the front diff to split power to the front wheels.
It is a very simple and effective system, is always on (unless decoupled) requiring no input from the driver and almost never goes bad. Symptoms of a VC going bad are either it fails to engage so the van remains 2wd, or it gets sticky and engages aggressively. If you buy the van you can look up the easy tests to check yours. If it is temperamental it can be rebuilt by replacing the fluid which can become contaminated with front diff oil if the seals go bad.
So that's a Syncro. It's a combination of the Syncro VC system, a slightly lifted body due to the special carriage needed to provide room for the front diff and driveline, a four speed transmission with an extra "granny" low gear for tough off-road conditions and the two locking options for the front and rear diffs.
The unfortunate way VW had the vehicles made (shipping half finished bodies to Steyr-Puch in Austria for the Syncro bits) added lots of manufacturing costs to the line and this limited sales. VW also missed out on the growing interest in off-road travel and failed to advertise the Syncro making them rare.
Bottom line on this van is it's worth the money he's asking. It's just a question of you having the time, place and willingness to fix it up.
Please don't buy it just to flip. Either buy it to love or let someone else get a decent deal who is willing to invest the time and money into returning the Syncro to life. |
Thank you so much for this very informative yet concise summary. I am not interested in flipping this van. The number of cars I own have reached double digits at this juncture but each and everyone gets plenty of love, attention and care. I'm not into cars to make money. Life is too short for that. My purpose is to enjoy things I own responsibly and then pass it on to the next generation when the time comes.
With that said, I am immensely grateful for all the input from all the members participating in this thread. I have learned a lot and appreciate each and every one of your comments and guidance. I have agreed to purchase the van and am very excited to start working on it and make great memories driving it. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22671
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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Congratulations and give us some picture porn as soon as you have closed the deal
| Quote: |
| VW also missed out on the growing interest in the marketing of off-road vehicles to get groceries and failed to advertise the Syncro making them rare. |
FTFY
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32635
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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We are so excited for this new addition to the family. The PO had all the records including the window sticker from the van was originally purchased! We look forward to working on the van and making many memories on trips |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9620
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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Congratulations!!
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16508
Location: Brookeville, MD
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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Welcome to the club!
Keep an eye on it, don't let it wander off with a stranger!
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| VW also missed out on the growing interest in the marketing of off-road vehicles to get groceries and failed to advertise the Syncro making them rare. |
FTFY |
(FIFY?) Hardly. The Syncro Westy was ahead of it's time (and still a league of it's own) think back to what was available; Bronco, Wagoneer, Cherokee, trucks, etc. If VW had streamlined their manufacturing (and offered a better engine) they could have competed on price.
Besides, the SUV grocery getter was what the minivan crowd moved into because they got embarrassed about driving soccer mom rigs. 
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Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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Looks like my 87
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
Looks like my 87
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That's a very clean looking 87 Syncro! Mine is a long way from yours but certainly has the potential.
We drove the van around the block yesterday and all seemed okay minus the known issues with brake (used emergency brake) and power steering. First order of business would be to fix brake and powersteering problems, flush ALL fluids, replace cracked tires and prepare for passing smog.
The PO was in the midst of a conversion to a SA front grill with quad round headlights but stopped short of finding a grill. To have working lights, I need to source a grill first but that shouldn't be an issue with passing smog.
We are super excited! |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3119
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| eamanb wrote: |
| I need to source a grill first |
That may prove difficult. Do you still have the parts to convert back to square headlights if you need to?
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| SCM wrote: |
That may prove difficult. Do you still have the parts to convert back to square headlights if you need to? |
Unfortunately I do not. The PO had sourced a single round headlight grill similar to the earlier models to use since the SA grill was unobtanium. I can install that with the H4 lights until I find a SA grill or just leave it as is. |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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just leave it and rock the single rounds..
you need to add "REPLACE ALL FUEL LINES" to your list.
including the bulkhead fitting that like to break.. unless a syncro doesn't use that same nylon fitting. I can't recall.
doing brake lines isn't too hard. and there are nice cupro-nickle or formable stainless options out now a days. a few $$ for a decent or good flaring tool
you'll need to do a bubble flare it takes a 2nd bit to do that.
but besides a syncro can be a decent investment. the memories it can make are priceless.
BRAKES
FUEL
ELECTRICAL
TIRES
then tunes.
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
just leave it and rock the single rounds..
you need to add "REPLACE ALL FUEL LINES" to your list.
including the bulkhead fitting that like to break.. unless a syncro doesn't use that same nylon fitting. I can't recall.
doing brake lines isn't too hard. and there are nice cupro-nickle or formable stainless options out now a days. a few $$ for a decent or good flaring tool
you'll need to do a bubble flare it takes a 2nd bit to do that.
but besides a syncro can be a decent investment. the memories it can make are priceless.
BRAKES
FUEL
ELECTRICAL
TIRES
then tunes. |
Thank you for the heads ups about the fuel lines. The van has been converted to a subaru 2.2. Does that mean the bulkhead fitting has been replaced? If not, are we talking about all the lines starting from the fuel tank? Does this require removal of the transaxle for access to the tank?
The brake line leak is at the flexible hose. The PO had purchased a set of stainless steel brake hoses that I will use to replace the old units with and then bleed.
The PO noted I needed to flush the radiator. However upon further discussion, it turns out he was suggesting I flush the coolant rather than having any issues with the radiator. At the moment there are no leaks, and the van does not overheat. Is it safe to just flush the coolant and replace the subaru thermostat or do folks recommend a new radiator as well? |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
you need to add "REPLACE ALL FUEL LINES" to your list.
including the bulkhead fitting that like to break.. unless a syncro doesn't use that same nylon fitting. I can't recall. |
No bulkhead fitting on the Syncro. However, since this has an engine conversion the best bet is to trace the fuel lines from the tank, to the engine, and back again. No telling how the PO did the lines but hopefully they replaced at least the easier ones.
Unfortunately the Syncro fuel tank does have some fuel lines which can be a bit of a pain to trace. The line from the bottom of the tank, through the pump and filter is pretty easy to follow, but the return line travels over the top of the tank and meets up with a tangle of vent lines which can only be accessed when the tank is out.
Best bet is to check the routing in the Bentley service manual to get an idea and check out posts from others who have tackled the chore.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly
At the very least give it an inspection for obvious leaks.
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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I like that you have color coordinated your clothing to match the van 
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| eamanb wrote: |
Unfortunately I do not. The PO had sourced a single round headlight grill similar to the earlier models to use since the SA grill was unobtanium. I can install that with the H4 lights until I find a SA grill or just leave it as is. |
I've posted very inexpensive 7" LED's in multiple threads that now cost ~$50 for a pair. They give markedly better lighting than H4's with high wattage bulbs and are lower than stock wattage so do not require headlight relays. They are plug and play. I adjusted the aim to spec and have never been flashed by oncoming traffic. Paying extra for the H4's in order to do more work to install them and have worse lighting from bulbs that burn out faster and consume more electricity isn't a choice I will ever make again. |
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| Merian wrote: |
| I like that you have color coordinated your clothing to match the van |
THANK YOU for catching that! It was definitely intentional and premeditated! |
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eamanb
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Need help pricing a 1987 Syncro Vanagon |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
| danfromsyr wrote: |
you need to add "REPLACE ALL FUEL LINES" to your list.
including the bulkhead fitting that like to break.. unless a syncro doesn't use that same nylon fitting. I can't recall. |
No bulkhead fitting on the Syncro. However, since this has an engine conversion the best bet is to trace the fuel lines from the tank, to the engine, and back again. No telling how the PO did the lines but hopefully they replaced at least the easier ones.
Unfortunately the Syncro fuel tank does have some fuel lines which can be a bit of a pain to trace. The line from the bottom of the tank, through the pump and filter is pretty easy to follow, but the return line travels over the top of the tank and meets up with a tangle of vent lines which can only be accessed when the tank is out.
Best bet is to check the routing in the Bentley service manual to get an idea and check out posts from others who have tackled the chore.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc...=titleonly
At the very least give it an inspection for obvious leaks. |
Thankfully the van came with a Bentley service manual and extensive maintenance records. In addition to searching through the paperwork for evidence of fuel line upgrade, I will be sure to do a visual inspection to rule out any compromised fuel lines prior to operating the van. Thank you for your input. |
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