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polo Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Pacific Palisades, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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Ok, I'm confused, hoping someone can clear this up.
My 65 kombi turn signals do not flash, and emergency flasher switch does nothing. The bus has been converted to 12v by PO. It has no e-flasher relay, I've got one and will be adding it in. But... it has a 6v turnsignal flasher relay in there.
I don't know how to test that relay, and probably won't bother as it's cheap enough just to replace it, my problem is which one do I use? The wiring diagram for the 63 shows item "J" for this realy, and it shows it with what appear to be 4 terminals, labeled "K", "S", "+" and a ground. The 6v relay in the bus has three terminals, labeled "K", "S" and "+" but the "+" is connected to the chassis, not to the e-flasher relay (which does not exist) and the fuse box.
I've found various relays at EIS, but they weren't sure which I should be going with. They are:
Great quality relay, that's 12 Volts, and has a 2 terminal prong. A great part for any restoration project. We all have bad relay days, sometime down the line they go bad on us. Why not replace one today with this new! Wagner flasher. Fits Bug's ' 71 - ' 79, Bus's ' 71 - ' 79, Ghia's ' 72 - ' 74, and Type 3's from ' 71 - ' 73.
Great quality part for any restortion project. This is a Wagner brand relay for the turn indicators. It's 12 Volts, and has 3 terminal prongs. Don't double guess if your relay's has gone bad, get a new one today! Will work for Bug's ' 71 - ' 79, Bus's '71 - ' 79, Ghia's ' 72 - ' 74, Type 3's from ' 71 - ' 73, and Van's from ' 80 - ' 93.
This is a hard relay to find, This is a true 4 prong relay for your turn signal switches. Why replace one with a bracket and hope if it works or not. This is the closest copy of the original 4 prong relay. This is a 12volt 4 terminal and fits. Bug, Bus, & Typ3's from ' 68 - ' 70, ghia's from ' 68 - ' 71.
I'm guessing its contestant number 2 above as that one looks the most like what's in there now, just in twelve volts, but the terminals on it are numbered 31, 49, 49A like on contestant number 3 and those don't match at all with the wiring diagram for the 63.
Does anyone know for sure which I should be using, and if its one of these three, how it gets stitched into the 63 diagram as far as terminal connections? _________________ Michael P.
1965 Kombi
1989 Jetta GL (R.I.P.)
2004 New Beetle Convertible GLS 1.8T
BumbleBuggy wrote: |
Nothing is cooler than driving a car that brings joy to the world simply by idling at a light. |
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ToolBox Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 3439 Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Use a relay from a 70 bay part number 211 953 315C(might be 215C).
Connect as follows:
31: Ground
KBL: To indicator lamp
49a: To switch
+49: To power |
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polo Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Pacific Palisades, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yup. I just spent about an hour and a half working my way through the wiring diagrams, got to the 70 bay diagram and it all clicked, came back here and you confirmed it, thanks ToolBox.
Contestant #3 will do it. But I also think #2 above will work, can you back me up on this?
#2 relay's terminals are 31, 49 & 49a. If you look at the 71 diagram, it looks like they eliminated the KBL terminal and just tap off 49a to light the speedo indicator.
#2 is half the price, and there's a clip on the chassis under the parcel tray shaped to accept it. I'd rather use that one, but am a little too new at this to be sure. _________________ Michael P.
1965 Kombi
1989 Jetta GL (R.I.P.)
2004 New Beetle Convertible GLS 1.8T
BumbleBuggy wrote: |
Nothing is cooler than driving a car that brings joy to the world simply by idling at a light. |
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gimli497N Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2021 Posts: 21 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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Hi All,
Im in the UK I have just got a 65 US import split screen bus.. Absolutely love it. Anyway my flashers are very slow. Ive had a look and it looks like the PO has had a good go at it. The system has been converted to 12v however there is only a 2 prong flasher relay in there. I checked on the side it is a vw one and it's rated to 12v yet I can't for the life of me find any wiring diagrams with this relay. Now I do have a 3 prong beetle flasher relay and was wondering while I'm tidying up the wiring if that would do a better job, but haven't a clue what to put where..
Also on a side note I got a smiths speedo for it. However it gives two wires in the instructions for the turn signals saying wire one to turn signal positive and one to negative.. I don't have a clue where to even start with this.. everything else I have managed to work out but.. this is kicking my arse if any one could help it would be appreciated.. Here is a pic of the relay.. (id like to say not my wiring..)
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70bus Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004 Posts: 535 Location: P.O.
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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As someone obsessively attempting to wire my 65 as-stock, WITH stock, I can tell you that there is an elegant solution if you don't mind cheating just a bit:
https://www.pantera-electronics.com/signal%20flasher.htm
The Bosch unit is basically the 215c Hella box that even I was using in place of the stock (unobtainable) 12v can with a KBL that grounds instead of goes hot. Not ONLY does this box cure the turn signals, the e=flashers, AND the speedo indcator light, it lets you run LED bulbs in all the lights!
It gets better - I have been working with the owner of Pantera Electronics (as have a few other VW folks here and there), and he will be bringing out a version that will fit Hella 215c boxes as drop-in replacements.
AND he is working on cramming it all into a round can like original, tho I'm not sure all the circuitry fits, so perhaps no relay for the 'ticktock' sound... but we'll see what he can come up with.
polo and gimli, if you have an e-flasher bus, it won't work properly with out a KBL that grounds; 49+ is hot, and those cans will not work. You'll at least get no speedo indicator light, and at worst many weird symptoms like lights on when key off, half flashing/half not etc. There are workarounds for thse problems in the forums, but wiring things properly means you don't have to remember what the hell you did next time you go in for troubleshooting... let alone the next poor bastard.
You also can not wire a 65 with a 70 diagram. Close, but not close enough. This is what a 63-65 bus w e-flashers needs.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=422253
With an aftermarket speedo, you'll probably have to use a diode as described by telford dorr, or switch the eflashers from an 'always-hot' to a 'ignition-hot' fuse. _________________ Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams |
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emersonbiggins Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2003 Posts: 1681 Location: Nebraska
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gimli497N Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2021 Posts: 21 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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Hi Guys,
Firstly thanks for the replies. Now from what I have gathered by searching the topics etc is that I have opened a massive can of worms with this! I now understand why the wiring is the way it is!
So with the relay I have the indicators work but they are slow to start flashing and flash slowly. The only other relay I have is a 3 prong beetle one so I was wondering if that would work any better. I just have no clue how to wire it in to get it to function. As for the hazards they do nothing with the current setup and I would like to get them working properly. If anyone could help with some advice it would be fantastic. With regards to the speedo here is a pic of the wiring instructions for it. Most I have wired in its just the indicator positive and negative I'm not sure on.
Any help I can get would be great. I am a complete novice. I did wire up my bug..but it took tons of trial and error and it still makes my head spin to this day!! Thanks Again |
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70bus Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004 Posts: 535 Location: P.O.
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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Slow flashing should be a bum relay, or the wrong load on it (I gather some t/s relays click faster w/ a bulb out, some slower, but I think VW is always slowr as the lessened load takes longer to heat up the trigger in the older relay. Modern electronic ones I don't know).
You could rewire as stock and find appropriate t/s relay; Wagner 559 and Hella 215C have KBL to ground, and the Pantera Elect boxes. I think you'd need a diode to keep the speedo indicator happy on the Smith's. Or wire as per most modern cars and use the t/s relay that has 49+ to that indicator, but you have to fiddle with eflasher.
The Smith's pod is pricey; I would contact them and see what they say to both solutions. I doubt anything bad will happen to the pod besides indicator not working, but they might have some suggestions on what to try.
I am eyeing the Smith's tach and temp gauges, but also eyeing my bank account! _________________ Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams |
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gimli497N Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2021 Posts: 21 Location: UK
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Posted: Yesterday 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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Hi All,
AN update. IN the end the relay that was in there started really doing weird stuff, so I decided to wire in the 3 prong beetle one I had spare. I found a helpful article on bugs that simply explains the different relays really helpful link here:
https://www.jbugs.com/VW-Tech-Article-Turn-Signal-Switches-Relays.html
I wired it up according to their instructions for the 3 prong, adding in a new decent ground to the body. An hey presto they work beautifully!!! Only problem I had was that they were on a permanent live so worked with the ignition off which I didn't like, so I found a switched live fuse in the box with the same rating and tada!!! Its alive!!! Then I hooked up the speedo according to the instructions... and it works beautifully!! All the lights work properly its nice and clear.. Im well pleased with it it makes the dash look gorgeous!! I will post a pic in due course. Only thing left to do is calibrate it.. which you do by putting it in set mode and driving a mile and then stopping and completing the setup and its nice and accurate no matter what th wheel size you are running!! I will let you know how this turns out! Apart from the awkwardness of getting the speedo in and tightened nicely and having to wait for a new seal as the old one disintegrated when I removed the old speedo I quite chuffed!
Still no hazards though... that's for another day though I think as I suspect the switch may be knackered.. I will see what I can get hold of. if any one has any suggestions in this regard they would be appreciated!! Once again thanks for the help and support! |
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70bus Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004 Posts: 535 Location: P.O.
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Posted: Yesterday 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Turn signal relay, 1965, 12v |
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VW and US regs meant the hazards are supposed to work with key off; otherwise, if you are by side of road and need the hazards, at the least you might fry ignition parts if leaving the key on. If you are stuck, cooked points or an exploded coil might be the least of your worries! But yes, switching the power source to a keyed fuse solves some problems.
Your hazards are likely knackered due to wrong relay again; the switch is very simple and just makes all four terminals connect. It's the same as some wiper switches.
https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211955511B
The relay
https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211953226
Originals, 6 or 12v, looked like a headlight relay and had these terminals:
Goes same place headlight relay goes; don't confuse them. neither works for the other purpose!
Almost any relay wired like this with 87 AND 87b will work
If you have a parts stash, I have used these with success
_________________ Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams |
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