2021 - Split window bus engine 2332 / first build

[Help Help]

Building a weekend cruiser for a split window bus with a straight axle conversion. All things point to if I building it, build it big and don't look back. Looking for more grunt and some bling. May see some friskiness light-to-light but not a race motor so building it with a 6500 RPM redline in mind. Freeway driving is a necessity, so long runs, an hour or two max at 3k-3300. Looking for 150-ish HP and 30K mile longevity.

Here's what I’m thinking so far, what’s wrong or what would you do and why?

Case: CB White Rhino case
Crank: DPR Machine 84MM counterweighted VW journals
Rods: Unitech I beam 5.5”
Pistons and Cylinders: AA 94’s
Heads: Panchitos (May reshape for more CCs) with single springs
Target compression: 8.8-9.0
Cam: TBD (in favor of running lower lift with ratio rockers)
Lifters: New stock VW
Carbs: 44 IDF
Exhaust: Vintage Speed for a lowered bus rated for 150hp
Additional: Full flow + dog house, a sump of some kind and super tins under the cyls.

[Multi69s]

If this is your first VW engine build, I would probably start out a little less ambushes - just saying.
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69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
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AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[jason]

I have a 2017 in my bus. Plenty fast. I'd stick with an 82 if staying with VW journals. 84 typically but its in a bus. I had a vintage speed but changed it to a sidewinder.

[Glenn]

You should look at the CB "Builder' Choice" kits. They take a lot of the guess work out of what parts work well together.

I used them as a base for a 1915 and 2017 with excellent results.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[Alstrup]

Hello
A couple of things.
Since its a bus I would definitely recommend that you upgrade the crank to one with a type 4 center main.
Ohh, and another thing. While the Unitechs are plenty strong for what youre aiming for, I suggest that you use regular H beam instead, or you will soon run into cam/rod clearance issues and possibly also rod to case issues. Last, I like short rods, but again, when it is for a bus I suggest a little longer rod so you reduce the wall wear and help the rings seal at lower rpms especially.

I would also recommend you to go with 92 thick wall cylinders. They - are - significantly better at staying round when the engine is used hard. (You can of course also go with thickwall 94´s, but that is not for a rookie.) just saying. Also, they do cool slightly less due to less fin area.

2230 displacement, power potential to 6000 with 6500 shift point, wohnt happen with Panchito´s and sgl springs unless you go fancy with some Beehives or Oteva S90 springs and possibly a high end cam from Nowak or JPM.
I really like the P heads for an out of the box solution, but my personal opnion is that they have outlived themselves in stock form at 2165 cc. I have built street 2275´s with hand ported heads with 40 x 35 mm valves that flowed some 10 cfm more than the P heads and with more port volume. They work well, but still need cams in the 86b range to really make power. But then 160ish hp and 250 Nm torque is not a problem.
92 mm bores can work very well with a 42 mm intake valve, and a 42 mm intake can hace juust enough curtain area to make a good filling without going ballistic on the cam duration and cam lift. Next problem is, that most off the shelf heads with 42 intakes are 37,5 mm out, and most of these heads are laid out for rpm power except the Tims Stage 2, so that will be my recommendation. Order them with Ruddocks Beehive spring conversion.

Camshaft. Since you want the ability to keep on rocking past 6000 I´m thinking CB 2246 or Engle W125 with stock rockers. CB 2242 w. 1,25 rockers was also an option for more lower end grunt and a little less upper end power.

Hope this helps.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[Clatter]

[Help Help]

You guys bring up some good points, thanks! May think about dropping down to 2110/2180.

As for a first build, I've done several "short block up" builds so I've got some understanding and lots of friends to help. It's a personality flaw of mine to worry about it first then build it and I'm a little bored at work at the moment.

[evanfrucht]

First timer over here recently finished a 2180 as my first engine build. The first 500 miles or so it's been rippin' and hasn't skipped a beat

I'm that dumb kid down the street who might of bit off more than could be chewed easily... but I mustered thru and did not "go home"

It was a big task and took forever, especially since I got hung up on not only on every single little important detail... but all the petty, meaningless, and trivial ones as well

It was a lot of work, but if you realistically think you can do it you probably can...

Now what would I do? Keep the cam milder and go down to 82 stroke. Maybe a Web 86A or something similar. Maybe pick something around 250-258 duration @ 0.05 and around 0.5" lift at valve ( which depends on rocker ratio— I like 1.4+ ratio.)

Or you can go up to an 86B but the power won't really come on until 2500-3000 rpms (kinda comes on like a turbo... ok not really but you get the point) Dont get me wrong you'd still have plenty of torque to move around the bus in the lower revs, you'll just be sacrificing some off-idle grunt, in exchange for more power when you give it gas... but you'll need to rev up to 4500-5000 to really start to get thrown back in your seat... If that's your thing With 258+ duration @ 0.05 it won't feel as effortlessly snappy down low and off idle.

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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )

[txoval]

Recommend 82x92 (thick walls) with 5.4 h-beam rods. Just need to remember that 92 thickwalls have a 35mm pin height, not 34mm. Just something to remember during mock-up.

I liked my W125 cam with 1.1 rockers, but you can't go wrong with an 86a or 86b with 1.4 rockers.

Dan sells the Web 252, which is in between the 86a and 86b.

I really like my Nowak cam, super quiet and idles smoothly (312 total duration and 258 @ .050"). You just have to be willing to pay for one.

[Alstrup]

I´ll take the 163 w 1,25´s any day over the 86a w. 1,4.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[evanfrucht]

[Alstrup]

[Help Help]

[Brian_e]

A 2180cc with good 40x35 heads, and a web 218 will rev to 5500rpm. It will start to pull about 2000rpm, and keep pulling hard, with a peak torque around 3500-4000rpm. Right in the driving range.

If you want a little more sporty feel, do the 163w/1.3 rockers. This will also get you about 500 more rpm. You might loose a touch more rpm down low.

The web 218 is my go-to cam for a lower revving bus engine. I have one in my 2332cc in my baywindow. We drive it everywhere.

Brian
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[Paul.H]

What's with all these different cam numbers ! I have to keep going on the ACN website to look em up.
I'd loose the 84mm crank and go with an FK7 and 1.4's

[richierich]

2276 in my split panel. Mag case, SCAT 82mm crank / SCAT I beams, C45 cam, CB heads with 44x 37 valves, ported like super pro's, 48 IDA's. The thing is crazy powerful for a bus. Oil runs around 220f on a run (does have an external cooler with fan but no scoops or anything like that) and heads never go above 350. Then again, it is built right by one of the best. Some do say that a 2276 wont work in a bus though......
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Blah.....

[Ohio Tom]

If rpm limits are low, there is no need for T4 center main.

I recommend going as big as you can. 2332, 2387cc.. why not?

thick wall 92's are nice. Go for it... Keep the stroke as big as you can.

The Panchito will work well for the application.

I always get them with dual VW-650 springs, and get the CNC chambers for the added flow and larger chambers.

I recommend something along the lines of an FK-7 cam with 1.4 rockers. (.500" lift) is real easy on those heads.

Keep C/R in the 8.0/1 range and you will no issues with heat. It will stay nice and cool.
Those Panchito heads flow lots of air and run very cool.

[evanfrucht]

2180+ is a good engine. I agree with Tom, "why not" go bigger? Even with something like a 86B you will still have plenty of torque (actually more,) just it comes on a little later, but it'll be pushing you before you know it.

You say you don't want to shift at 6k (I get it) but it's still fun to have all that power and be able too, even occasionally, I guess it depends on what fun means to you. The powerband of my engine https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 is probably between 2500-5500 rpms so even when I'm just driving around town calmly I can shift at 3000 and it still feels like its pulling hard. I can even shift lower if I wanted. I can drive 25 mph in 3rd gear without it lugging. I'm not usually a very aggresive driver at all.

I had the same concerns as you and never normally shifted as high as 6k before on my stock engine... but I'm glad I went for more cam on this one...

When a big engine LIKES to rev up, it feels very natural to shift at a higher rpm that you might be used to. At least that's something I've learned through experience.

I'm a go big kinda guy now... sorry. Remember tho, it's your engine so do what you want.

Next engine I build I'm going bigger and meaner (2.5L+)
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )

[Paul.H]

Why not go bigger eh ?
Here's why
2276 to 2443 is only about 7% increase and you don't automatically
get a 7% increase due to extra frictional loss and windage plus you have to have increase head flow.
Cranks get weak VW put the T4 centremain on the T4 engine or maybe they just did it for fun ? That's why the 84mm T1 main chevy rod crank is refered to as a " flexicrank" and obviously it gets worse the bigger you go.

Then there is the increased rod angle which causes more piston and ring wear
Increased piston speed
Oil windage problems
Longer rods wider engine. barrel spacers,exhaust tinware fitting issues
Case and cam clearancing issues.
Etc

And then when you've either solved or ignored the problems and you arrived as the big dude on the block you get your doors blown off by someone who dropped a 40 shot on his lame ass 2017cc motor

[evanfrucht]

"Problems" for some are no big deal to others. They are simply design and engineering challenges. A lot of the enjoyment can be in the build itself, and the process that comes with it.

It all depends on what you want. There are reason to go smaller as well as bigger. It all about your goals and what makes it fun for you. Maybe you want to keep it simple and just drive, or you just want to build engines and experiment. Often it's some sort of middle ground.

For some, they take pride in limiting the build to N/A and feel any sort of forced induction or fancy stuff is "cheating" I can get behind it, tho I still may get a kick out of playing with turbos every once in awhile

It's often recommended to stay under 82mm crank for a Bus unless you're trying to win a race or something. Its been said that crank flex becomes a problem anything over that stroke... So that might be worth considering if you decide to go wild
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )