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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2323
Location: Bay area CA
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 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| Aryana wrote: |
Drag increases at a square of the speed.
Pushing the 4x8 sheet of plywood which is the front of a Vanagon over 40 MPH resukta in a big MPG hit. |
And the power needed is the cube of the speed!
Getting low rpms for a given speed isn't necessarily the route to best mpg. You need the engine to be at its most efficient for the speed - for the EJ22 in my van it seems third gear at 40-45 mph not fourth hits the sweet spot.  Trundling along in the twisties for many miles gives surprisingly good mpg, 22+, rather than the 16-17 around town.
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Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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llilibel03
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008
Posts: 767
Location: Redondo Beach California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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I was going to say my Vanagon gets pretty good gas mileage going down mountains. 
90 gl hard top- 18-24
85 tiico westy- 16- 20. going 65mph highway.
55mph is the happy place. Wasn't that the national (USA) speed limit when my westy was built?
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87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present) |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22653
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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40-45 will give you best mpg
Congestion in LA and SF are bad but drivers are much more courteous than back east.
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| Recently got 20.4 loaded going 65 to occasionally 70. Burning no alcohol 91. 200 Interstate miles and lost 700 feet in altitude during the trip. |
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szegedin7
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
| Recently got 20.4 loaded going 65 to occasionally 70. Burning no alcohol 91. 200 Interstate miles and lost 700 feet in altitude during the trip. |
Yeah - should have mentioned, I'm using 87 octane all the time -- I use high octane + octane booster in a bottle if I'm going to encounter any serious mountains, and it helps a lot. I can actually go 45 up a hill.
| fxr wrote: |
| Getting low rpms for a given speed isn't necessarily the route to best mpg. You need the engine to be at its most efficient for the speed - for the EJ22 in my van it seems third gear at 40-45 mph not fourth hits the sweet spot. Wink Trundling along in the twisties for many miles gives surprisingly good mpg, 22+, rather than the 16-17 around town. |
I was saying in the original post, the torque curve is part of the equation, but I think the aerodynamics cancel it out. I wouldn't want to be running my engine over 4000rpm all day long, but you have a more modern engine. 
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1990 Vanagon 2.1 |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6829
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| No matter the speed, the sweet spot for great MPG's in my van is at the front of a tail wind.🥴 |
Or 6 feet behind a semi. I did that 45 years ago in my ‘71 and took my foot off the accelerator pedal and dropped into neutral in the massive draft. Only to prove a point. Not a wise decision if you desire a long life. |
What! You too!
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There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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Aryana
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2015
Posts: 568
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| szegedin7 wrote: |
I wouldn't want to be running my engine over 4000rpm all day long, but you have a more modern engine. |
A stock WBX that's maintained well has no problems whatsoever sustaining 4000+ rpm for hours on end.
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szegedin7
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| Aryana wrote: |
| szegedin7 wrote: |
I wouldn't want to be running my engine over 4000rpm all day long, but you have a more modern engine. |
A stock WBX that's maintained well has no problems whatsoever sustaining 4000+ rpm for hours on end.
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But not for years on end
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1990 Vanagon 2.1 |
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Aryana
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2015
Posts: 568
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| szegedin7 wrote: |
| Aryana wrote: |
| szegedin7 wrote: |
I wouldn't want to be running my engine over 4000rpm all day long, but you have a more modern engine. |
A stock WBX that's maintained well has no problems whatsoever sustaining 4000+ rpm for hours on end.
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But not for years on end |
20 years of 4000+ rpm cruising on mine and currently at 224k and still going strong. Heads resealed twice but that's normal.
Getting your WBX hot is really important. An oil temp gauge shows how long it takes to get the oil warmed up on every drive which is the key to longevity.
Many Vanagons spend too much time putting around town and never get got enough to boil off all the water inside the crankcase thus leading to internal accelerated corrosion and wear.
The best way to ensure you get up to 212F oil temp? Drive it like you stole it and don't be scared of high rpm.
Oh, forgot to mention it does this for 1000+ miles at a time with the slider open and a motorcycle inside.
Has never been towed home.
EDIT: I was wrong, it's at 227k now
Ask yourself if your Vanagon was an airplane, would you fly in it over hostile terrain with no where to land? If the answer is no, then you have more work to do or more money that needs to be spent.
You will get horrible gas mileage but gas is cheap. |
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dabaron
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Joined: June 21, 2018
Posts: 2559
Location: Philly, mang
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| szegedin7 wrote: |
Yeah I guess I'm doing better than you on the highway, but just as bad around town. It's that city MPG figure that kills me. That 75mph driving is probably harder on the engine than it is on the MPGs -- you're pushing 4000rpm, right?
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on the Interstate i watch the tach more than the speedo - i like to keep it under 4k, but there are times i need to get around a slower moving vehicle and don't want to hold up the parade behind me, so i'll push it to 75MPH and that is about 4200 rpm. i'm there long enough to get around Mrs. Daisy, but on some long downhills i'll hit 75 without trying.
| szegedin7 wrote: |
| I wouldn't want to be running my engine over 4000rpm all day long, but you have a more modern engine. |
i have no problem with 4000, but infrequent forays in the stripes doesn't concern me. as long as the oil temp and pressure are good, i don't see the issue.
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1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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LachlanMcLean
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Joined: January 29, 2013
Posts: 111
Location: Adirondacks
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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A lot of people complain of the horrible aerodynamics of the Vanagon, but have they ever looked into the data for aerodynamic drag? The Vanagon falls between a Dodge Viper and Lamborghini Countach for Coefficient of drag factor @ .44 so it’s not great, but it’s not a sideways cow barn in the wind, either.
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'91 Westfalia 2.1L auto |
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syncropatrick
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: UK, southwest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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Prominently displayed!
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| LachlanMcLean wrote: |
| A lot of people complain of the horrible aerodynamics of the Vanagon, but have they ever looked into the data for aerodynamic drag? The Vanagon falls between a Dodge Viper and Lamborghini Countach for Coefficient of drag factor @ .44 so it’s not great, but it’s not a sideways cow barn in the wind, either. |
Luckily, the gas mileage of the Vanagon doesn't fall between that of a Dodge Viper and Lamborghini Countach!!
And the Westy is more like 0.51 - without the crap in the luggage rack, top carriers, solar panels, several inches of lift, and a Beverly Hillbillies' load of stuff hanging off of the rear...
That said, for me running around 45-50 on country roads is the sweet spot for mpg. And it's usually prettier too.
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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szegedin7
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| Aryana wrote: |
Drive it like you stole it and don't be scared of high rpm.
Ask yourself if your Vanagon was an airplane, would you fly in it over hostile terrain with no where to land? |
I don't know, does New Jersey count as hostile terrain? Then yeah, I do it regularly. Let's just agree to disagree. I bought my van for $800 and have driven it 125,000 miles (at 302,000 now) for practically nothing in repairs. You'll never find someone who has spent less to drive this many miles, and I don't dread getting shot down but it doesn't happen.
The van also heats up plenty at low speed, in fact, I think 20 minutes of stop and go has it at full temp where the fan would come on. This website is sometimes a club for people to convince each other to spend money, and I guess I'm not philosophically on board with that. There's more than one way to drive a vanagon -- I like the cheap, marathon approach where you minimize friction. But "drive it like you stole it" is not how you maximize engine life, is it.
| LachlanMcLean wrote: |
| A lot of people complain of the horrible aerodynamics of the Vanagon, but have they ever looked into the data for aerodynamic drag? The Vanagon falls between a Dodge Viper and Lamborghini Countach for Coefficient of drag factor @ .44 so it’s not great, but it’s not a sideways cow barn in the wind, either. |
Yeah you're right about that, I have looked at the chart. In fairness, a '74 Countach looks fast, but has much higher drag than a late-model Corolla. Like, MUCH higher. Most of the vehicles with worse aerodynamics than a vanagon have loads more power, and just blast their way into the wind -- Hummers, Land Rovers, Mustangs etc -- gas be damned. Maybe somebody should put the Lamborghini engine in a Corolla and drag race them to settle this once and for all.
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1990 Vanagon 2.1 |
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szegedin7
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| szegedin7 wrote: |
| Aryana wrote: |
Drive it like you stole it and don't be scared of high rpm.
Ask yourself if your Vanagon was an airplane, would you fly in it over hostile terrain with no where to land? |
I don't know, does New Jersey count as hostile terrain? Then yeah, I do it regularly. Let's just agree to disagree. I bought my van for $800 and have driven it 125,000 miles (at 302,000 now) for practically nothing in repairs. You'll never find someone who has spent less to drive this many miles, and I don't dread getting shot down but it doesn't happen.
The van also heats up plenty at low speed, in fact, I think 20 minutes of stop and go has it at full temp where the fan would come on. This website is sometimes a club for people to convince each other to spend money, and I guess I'm not philosophically on board with that. There's more than one way to drive a vanagon -- I like the cheap, marathon approach where you minimize friction and putting torque on components. But "drive it like you stole it" is not how you maximize engine life, is it.
| LachlanMcLean wrote: |
| A lot of people complain of the horrible aerodynamics of the Vanagon, but have they ever looked into the data for aerodynamic drag? The Vanagon falls between a Dodge Viper and Lamborghini Countach for Coefficient of drag factor @ .44 so it’s not great, but it’s not a sideways cow barn in the wind, either. |
Yeah you're right about that, I have looked at the chart. In fairness, a '74 Countach looks fast, but has much higher drag than a late-model Corolla. Like, MUCH higher. Most of the vehicles with worse aerodynamics than a vanagon have loads more power, and just blast their way into the wind -- Hummers, Land Rovers, Mustangs etc -- gas be damned. Maybe somebody should put the Lamborghini engine in a Corolla and drag race them to settle this once and for all. |
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1990 Vanagon 2.1 |
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Aryana
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2015
Posts: 568
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| szegedin7 wrote: |
I don't know, does New Jersey count as hostile terrain? Then yeah, I do it regularly. Let's just agree to disagree. I bought my van for $800 and have driven it 125,000 miles (at 302,000 now) for practically nothing in repairs. You'll never find someone who has spent less to drive this many miles, and I don't dread getting shot down but it doesn't happen.
The van also heats up plenty at low speed, in fact, I think 20 minutes of stop and go has it at full temp where the fan would come on. This website is sometimes a club for people to convince each other to spend money, and I guess I'm not philosophically on board with that. There's more than one way to drive a vanagon -- I like the cheap, marathon approach where you minimize friction. But "drive it like you stole it" is not how you maximize engine life, is it. |
Oof, $800 van with minimal investment in 125k miles is not going to be a candidate for driving at high sustained speed. Shoot, I wouldn't even use that as a daily driver.
Your coolant comes up to temp way faster than the oil. The radiator fan can come on while the oil is still working to come up to full operating temp. The cost of adding a oil temp gauge doesn't align with what you have going so keep using the routine that works for what you want to accomplish. |
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szegedin7
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Joined: April 03, 2017
Posts: 117
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:24 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| Aryana wrote: |
Oof, $800 van with minimal investment in 125k miles is not going to be a candidate for driving at high sustained speed. Shoot, I wouldn't even use that as a daily driver.
Your coolant comes up to temp way faster than the oil. The radiator fan can come on while the oil is still working to come up to full operating temp. The cost of adding a oil temp gauge doesn't align with what you have going so keep using the routine that works for what you want to accomplish. |
I don't drive at high sustained speed -- that's what I've been saying. I drive 55 tops, so yeah, what I'm doing is working beautifully for me. Your point is taken on coolant temp, but I can't control oil temp -- I drive when and where I need to drive. I guess some guys enjoy doing rebuilds, but I'm not one of them. This has been my daily driver for 11 years and has done four x-country and countless times up and down the east coast, while you were doing two head jobs on fewer miles. Different strokes for different folks. But yours is a lot prettier than mine!
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1990 Vanagon 2.1 |
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Aryana
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2015
Posts: 568
Location: Southern CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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If it gets the job done, it doesn't matter what it looks like, right?!
You buy a car to "be" and a van to "do". |
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vegpedlr
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Joined: June 07, 2014
Posts: 774
Location: TBD
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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My understanding was that wind drag increased dramatically somewhere around 60, hence the national speed limit was set at 55 to help conserve fuel as a response OPEC. Also for safety. Maybe I’m wrong.
My scientific test of this is to listen to the wind noise while gradually getting up to speed on the freeway. Somewhere around 55 it starts to get noisy, over 60 and music or conversation becomes difficult. So 55-50 is my top speed, luckily, those are the speed limits in my area.
So turtling along at 45-55 listening to something groovy, I’m happy, the bus is happy, the people behind me, not so much.
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Igeo
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Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: What is the actual OPTIMAL speed for MPG in a Vanagon? |
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| Aryana wrote: |
| szegedin7 wrote: |
I wouldn't want to be running my engine over 4000rpm all day long, but you have a more modern engine. |
A stock WBX that's maintained well has no problems whatsoever sustaining 4000+ rpm for hours on end.
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Ok I'll bite. You are driving a Vanagon 80 mpg with the slider open and a motorcycle hanging out in the breeze. Are you bragging or complaining? Hope I never encounter you on the road!
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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